Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

weird

139 replies

T464 · 18/12/2008 12:18

This is weird ... and have been thinking about it for awhile... here it is:

OP posts:
Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 18:10

The Betrayal of the Bystanders

Why do we feel so wronged by the people who believe a narcissist's lies about us? There are a number of reasons, but here is one of the biggest.

It's because their credulity isn't innocent. If a stranger believes some outrageous lie about us, we aren't surprised, and we don't feel wronged by them. But if someone who knows us believes that same lie, we feel betrayed. Guess why? It's because they have betrayed us by believing that lie about us.

For example, if someone has known you for ten years, they see your track record of conduct for the last ten years. In other words, they have seen how you conduct yourself along this way of life we're bound upon.

No, they don't see everything you've said and done. But they have seen a lot. They have seen you react to many various stimuli.

That track record of yours sketches your character in their eyes. This representation of what kind of person you are is based on your CONDUCT (your words and deeds), not on mere hearsay about you.

So no one should be able to come along and tell them JUST ANYTHING about you.

For example, if you are a gentle person, in ten years that will show. Many times. The people you interact with daily will see sample after sample of you reacting gently to things that most others would react more harshly to.

So no narcissist should be able to come along and insinuate that you are violent.

Likewise if you are honest. In ten years that will show. Many times. The people you interact with daily will see sample after sample of you reacting honestly to things that most others would hedge the truth about.

So no narcissist should be able to come along and insinuate that you are a liar.

Likewise if you are sensible. In ten years that will show. Many times. The people you interact with daily will see sample after sample of you reacting sensibly to things that most others would show poor judgment about.

So no narcissist should be able to come along and insinuate that you are crazy and imagining things.

To believe these things about you they have to unknow everything they know about you. That is, they have to unknow you. They have to revise history. They have to erase that track record of yours.

And that track record is your life. They have to wipe it out.

That takes your life.

Which is why they call it "character assassination."

Your whole life goes up in smoke. And a figment of the imagination is substituted for it.

Those people are not innocent. Indeed, check it out: that is the Original Sin.

Eve committed it when she chose to believe that God was the liar, not the slithering sidewinder who snuck up to her and said, "Really? God told you that? That you would fall if you swallowed this stuff?"

Then Adam committed it worse when he swallowed it, too, just to agree with Eve.

The serpent did the same thing to God that the narcissist does to his victims, whom he slanders to discredit. Adam and Eve did the same thing to God that people do to a narcissist's victim when they believe the lie.

The narcissit's lie is always ironic. For the narcissist is out to smear one of your outstanding GOOD QUALITIES with the semblance of one of his own VICES. So, the allegation is always preposterous. No one who knows you should be fooled by it.

Because it isn't believable. They should know better. But they willfully don't. Because the lie is juicy.

And so, there's nothing like a narc attack to show you who your real friends are.

taken from narc-attack.blogspot.com/2007/02/betrayal-of-bystanders_21.html

BingleJells · 18/12/2008 18:18

T464, my N also could tell the most plausible lies instantly. He was so convincing in every way. The debt- we lived together and had DC. He was setting up his own business. I had to look after the baby he didn't want me to work said he needed all his time to work on the new project. He had all my savings and ran up huge CC debts. I fell so stupid.

Can only tell people who've been through it too. Others would just think I must be really thick to be taken in. I used to think the same about women taken in by these type of men. Now I know it could happen to anybody.

Glad to see you're becoming more coherent and lucid on the thread now you've got support. Keep it going.

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:21

"nothing like a narc attack" !!

wow.

Amazingly when I asked my close friends (people I have not spoken to in years!!) about his comments about me they all said he sounds to be off his rocker! Thank God. No claims of his were substantiated.

But what is weird is that HE HE would say such things about me -- that he would believe them. He knows me. He even used to praise my honesty. That's what I don't get..... and that's what feels insane to me. It's like someone looking at me and saying over and over "your hair is blue" and "the sky is green" "the sky is green" "the sky is green". Isay "the sky is blue" They say "NO! The sky is green" over and over and over. So weird.

Until confronted by proof (like the old phone bills I had) at which point he said "fine fine fine. ok you did try to call me. Now just drop it!!"

That;s what I am beginning to see here. I have not been able to understand how someone can be this way. Can just deliberately lie over and over and over again. I am getting a sense now that they lie to protect their own egoes. He lied, maybe to protect his own ego. his own sense of the world. he is not at fault. other people are.

I just have to go back over just about everything he said for all these years ....

even little things, incongruencies that always stood out to me, because something just was not right.

little things like for example one time he told me the woman he briefly dated (before me -- MAYBE?!).. he did not like her, because, as he put it. onnce she took a bag of ice from outside a store without paying for it. he did not like that behavior. Ok. I thought. Odd to end a relatnship based on one very specific fact like taht, but I kept it in mind and thought: this guy seems to like extreme and total honesty and integrity.

then I observed him taking things from the hotel room where we stayed without giving it a second thought. Incongruent. It did not make sense.

later he told me that woman was not his girlfriend. Others thought she was and she wanted him.

Phew!!

I have not ever known anyone else like this.

Not ever known someone to lie so much !!

And this weird thing about constantly abhorring in others that which it turns out he does himself!!!

. . . . What?!?! . . . .

OP posts:
BingleJells · 18/12/2008 18:25

And this weird thing about constantly abhorring in others that which it turns out he does himself!!!

I think it's called 'mirroring' in psychology and I've seen it in several men. Had one who always called his flatmate mean but never bought drinks on nights out and was always round at my place for food!

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:27

Hello BingleJells!

Yes -- the money thing is still weird to me... and all the lies.

And coherency.

I am a coherent (I think), intelligent (I hope! ) person --- but all this stuff has just been so convoluted...... confusing!! Just had to write it all out and just keep on writing and writing!!! whew!!!

Had the great fortune to grow up with people who are HONEST! They do what they say. it is very simple. Good. Never lied. There's manipulation - control issues -- all kinds of other twisty stuff ..... but in terms of honesty and clarity, that was never an issue I had to deal with, thank God, til this stuff.

I also practiced loving this guy so long and I am basically a good person at heart I like to like people and think really good of them -- I basically think good of all people (I don't let everyone in close, but I generally think well of people and am glad that I do, makes world a nicer place). Am just still finding it a bit hard after practicing loving someone for so long and having this person say all kinds of seemingly honest and encouraging things, to change that all over. (seven years of thinking "good person" !!)...

OP posts:
Amazoniancracker · 18/12/2008 18:32

My N was a well respected secondary school teacher. After he ran away to shag, it was discovered he had not been marking his pupils' work for a year. He had been making their grades up..

he knew he was about to be rumbled...

he turned on the tears

he told staff that 'things were difficult at home' which i guess was a euphamism for his lie that I was - what? beating him up? A mad insane person impossible to live with type?

Lies lies lies...all to cover his own lies.

The school were highly embarrassed to discover he had not been doing his job after he left - he had foolwed/conned his own head of department into feeling sorry for him and not questioning the grades he had made up. He screwed over his own pupils!

He was just a very convincing pathological liar and now he is telling his lies abroad. His last teaching post he has said, was in Scotland! Ha ha (though he can back up his lie as he knows quite a bit about the city he picked - so can sound plausible).

His entire life is one big lie. I feel pity for him. I pity his lack of connection with true love and true pain and the true ability to adore your own child and feel blessed.

I feel pity for his small deformed willy having to go up and down inside a Burmese woman just because he needs to shag not because he is in love with her. I pity the children he will go on to have and abandon.

I wake in the mornings T4 and I am honestly overjoyed now that he is out of our lives. Yes, sometimes I wish it had never happened, xmas will be difficult, my life is NOTHING like i thought it was going to be. I am unemployed, on benefits and hugely in debt.

But look - I am on here sharing my experience with you and others like me are helping you get over this freak of nature and learn to love yourself again.

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:37

As far as the money thing is concerned ---

I still feel odd about one thing.

He never actually stole any money from me. And yet it feels to me like I've been robbed! (so that must be true in some sense)

here;s what he did:

He promised me very serious financial things. He did not write up a contract, because as he put it "his word is his bond" (SOME BOND!!!! LOLLLLLLLLL duh..... he was telling the truth!! LOL his word IS his bond ... and BOY is it FLIMSY as hell!!!)

Anyway, based upon his promises, I quit a job, made very serious life changes/choices. I told him this all along the way. He ENCOURAGED me.

At one point I had to buy a computer to keep working. He encouraged me to buy it on credit -- since the money was coming in "Monday" and then "Wednesday" and then "no, Friday ... next week at the latest" and so on...... This went on for years.

He promised, once the cc bill for computer came due he'd cover it (I have his word). Bill went to debt collectors 3 years ago! Now is on my credit report...

I lived off my savings and ran up debt -- he continued to promise that we were "SO close" etcetcetc.

At times he wired me bits of money few 100 here and there, whenever he had it. (I believe that he was broke as he finally admitted after the first year. For the first year he was still claiming millions) I know he had to live with friends and could just barely make ends meet. Borrowing money from friends for gas and food, sleeping on couches and futons, etc.

So, barring the money which he promised me. I feel he at least owes me the money I lost in this pursuit with him. That seems like a fair equivalency. (roughly 40k)

So, in a sense I feel he took that from me. I would never have gotten myself into this kind of mess without his constant assurances and promises. And he was fully aware of my situation all the while, because I would ask him about it and talk with him about it all the time.

So, unlike others who've posted here who've actually had the money taken physically from their accounts by another, I feel like I've been robbed, too, but in a different way.

It definitely feels like robbery though .... so i'll go with the same adage I used to determine abuse. if it feels like abuse, then it probably, most probably is!

OP posts:
Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 18:39

Yes...mirroring...projecting...

One thing that made me feel a little better (!) was when I read that in the beginning, in the idealisation phase, they mirror all your qualities...as they have no feelings, they pick up on yours, and project them all back to you.

So my ex-devil-N who was so wonderful at first I thought I had died and gone to heaven, at last in my life I had found someone who was amazing and loved me....what he was doing was showing me what I am like!!! They are not human so cannot know how to be human, they have to copy you. But of course this cannot last, truth (or lies) will out.

Binglejells...how long ago did this happen to you, and how old were your children? What is the situation like now with your ex-HN?

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:46

Amazoniancracker he had a deformed willy, too??! Wow. I just thought all these things I experienced were unique to my situation the money and even a deformed w.!

Also -- I am shocked and appaled by your ex conduct at that school!!!

OP posts:
Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 18:48

Sorry but LOLOLOLOL @ deformed willies!!!!!!

BingleJells · 18/12/2008 18:50

GAG- it was recently so things still tricky. DC 8 and 5.

T4- the money situation was a little similar to yours. Left good job to work for him, ran up loads of business expenses on credit cards. Loads of plausible lies all the time, it just snowballed and felt like a runaway train I couldn't get off.
Keep getting interrupted by DC so finding it hard to write long posts.

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:51

Amazoniancracker:

this really made me smile!! :

"But look - I am on here sharing my experience with you and others like me are helping you get over this freak of nature and learn to love yourself again."

So true!!!

I am still amazed!!

Do you think you could spot this kind of freak-zoid of nature type if it happened again?

To you and any others out there -- what will you look for... or do you think you will just feel it and 'know' somehow?

OP posts:
BingleJells · 18/12/2008 18:51

So the way to spot a N isn't by branding, but by an oddly shaped willy?!!

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:53

Maybe deformed willies caused unresolved ANGER issues!!! (funny --- but also a serious suggestion)

OP posts:
BingleJells · 18/12/2008 18:54

I think I'm a lot more aware of what to look for now than I used to be and would never automatically trust a 'nice' guy or one that seemed kind and friendly. I'd want a lot of background info from others before taking things anywhere. Have become a bit over sensitive and trust few men now. Often find myself looking at them and thinking 'is he one?'

T464 · 18/12/2008 18:56

Bjingels -- yes I hear you on the money issue.

My sister is the only one who knows the full story (well, not the full full story, but the money part and bits and pieces). She's very kind, caring and level. She's younger than I am.

have not wanted to share the Money sit. with friends yet, bc I was feeling like I'd look so dumb dumbino!!

It all seems so weird to me -- I would not even have known how to tell them (and I certainly did not want to tell anyone while I was still in it!!)

OP posts:
Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 18:56

Yep its all hinges on the willy!!!!

Never mind fancy websites and clinical psychologists, just tell them to show them theirs before you show them yours...if its a funny shape...run like the wind...

Binglejells

how are you coping?

Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 18:58

dohhh...show you their's before you show them yours.....

Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 19:00

dohhh...total misuse of the apostrophe...

BingleJells · 18/12/2008 19:00

Yes, it's the feeling dumb that stops you from getting emotional support so you the start to feel isolated and mad. Then you come to MN and let it all out and it seems all chaotic thoughts at first until others come on the thread and you can start to understand it. There should be regional support groups for people who have suffered at the hands of N's. There wouldn't be that feeling of 'gaslighting' if there was obvious support to go to.

BingleJells · 18/12/2008 19:01

GAG- I need a lot of sympathetic counselling

Gettingagrip · 18/12/2008 19:05

Binglejells

Please CAT me if you wish.

xxx

BingleJells · 18/12/2008 19:10

Will do GAG but need to subscribe to it. Will sort it all out tomorrow. Thanks a mill.

T464 · 18/12/2008 19:12

wow! I started writing here when it was still nighttime (up very late /early) and now it is afternoon!! Whew. Feeling a bit wiped! ....

but...

Amazonian wrote :

"I am so much better now and sing and laugh that I am alive and well - massively in debt and still not well enough to work - but alive and I have my wonderful son. We are doing just fine."

I like your posts. Thanks for writing.

How long were you involved with ex?

And how long since he left?

OP posts:
T464 · 18/12/2008 19:13

Desiderata -- what is this order of the Buffalo? was that serious/ real??

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread