weird

[T464]

This is weird ... and have been thinking about it for awhile... here it is:

... when my grandfather died I was heart-broken and shocked and SAD!!! I could not reach X by phone all night. I found solace and comfort from strangers. In the morning I finally reached him. He seemed irritated, agitated, thinking about business-stuff. I told him my news, thinking he would immediately get compassionate (*as total strangers had done the night before!!!!). Instead he says something l ike "Oh! That's too bad! I wanted to meet him!!"

When I expressed that this was extremely upsetting to me and that I was shocked at his lack of caring response. He got very very angry with me -- shouting about how he had all kinds of business to take care of, his mind was on his business, etc etc etc.

Eventually I got him to agree to postpone his meetings so he could at least be there for me. He did so, reluctantly. Then got back on the phone with me. I felt like a punching-bag at that point.

Jeez. When a person close to me dies. His first reaction was about himself. And he never naturally hit upon being there for me. it was very very odd behavior. I attributed it to the fact that he was a bad communicator.

.....

Back from walk.

These people often reach 'high' positions. They are often heads of cults or religions, or cranky organisations.

Alternatively they join the forces, where they can be big fish in little ponds.

Their mantra is 'its all about me, me , me'.

There are several different types of N. They are not all the same. And it presents on a continuum. Some are extreme...and psychopaths, some are just selfish.

We all have some n traits...we have to have them to be healthy. These people are wired up wrongly however, they have often had terrible experiences as children and their narcissism is an attempt to create an alternative reality for themselves.

Its a huge problem in organisations, and is becoming more recognised, as these people create chaos and havoc wherever they go.

xxxx

Hi again! Hope you had a good walk -- I'm still here!

Ahh good to hear we all have some nar. traits I was getting worried as I read the list and thought: check, check, check, check, in terms of myself. (but any opera singer or performer must have some of that or they'd never get on stage!!)

Reading more about it all, though the whole insanity thing, how these people twist things so they don't make sense. I have been struggling with this for a long LOOOONNNG time!!

It's like a black hole where things just don't make any Damn sense. Here it is MONTHS after these g-damn text messages and I'm still reeling in my brain over what the hell happened!! I still feel rage and anger about it, because it is not true. I just can't get a grip on it to figure it out and it's like going nutty!!!!

How did he leave you in Debt?

Well, the first sign that you are not an N is that you think you are one!!!

Anyone who is an N would never have that thought. They are not capable of self-knowledge. They deny their true self.

Of course we can all check off a list of the defining traits, but the difference is that we are not like that ALL THE TIME.

We can also learn from our experiences, and if we do something that hurts another person we try our best not to do it again.

The insane making that you are describing is called 'gaslighting', and is a general N behaviour.

xxx

You know what else is weird --- in his rant txt msg rant he got so angry at me saying it was 'all about you'. (bc I kept trying to tell him imagine what it felt like to get that phone call from the woman) And I just could NOT figure that comment out. it made NO sense.

So many things he projected out -- like he told me for months prior to this about other men he knew who were having affairs, screwing prostitutes, etc. I kept asking why he was telling me this. Did he condone it? I told him I did not want to be associated with such things. He said he abhorred it, too. He did not condone it.

It's weird bc I told the woman that, too when she called and she said "he's talking about himself"!! She presented herself to me as someone like me -- maybe even MORE independent, less dependent on him. With her own place, etc. Saying she was going to throw him out, that I could have him, if I really wanted him with all we knew about him now.

But she apparently went right back to him (if she ever left him at all). She's the one who told him to change his number. I saw on the old phone he had given me that a bunch of women began to text his old phone!!! Shocking.

is it possible, I wonder that he really could have 'cleaned' out his life in terms of me and any other women he was screwing around --- and start over with her so to speak. I guess in my head I have this fantasy like he's "perfect" now and SHE got him. (I feel jealous! ...... all this stuff takes time to sink in!!!)

I just wonder if maybe he was just screwing around because he had not found the 'woman of his dreams' yet ... but that maybe now he's found it in her and she gets everything he promised to me.....

(then that becomes Mental Torture!!..... :-(

Re: debt.

He made very sweeping financial promises in the beginning (we were working on business deals together) that caused me to quit my job, leave my apartment (and life) in Italy, let a plane ticket go .... as months and months of work went by, with no return, I had to begin to live off my savings and then eventually began to accrue debt. He promised all the time that we were "just around the corner" to completing everything and getting the money!

....

and that's how the years went on.

By the time I realized things weren't happening I was already too deep into it.

life savings gone. debt HIGH.

Some money did start to come in. And things seemed to be starting to turn around ..... slowly ....

and then... well ....

Now I see that some things did start to work out for him. he has money. I also saw he started spending quite a bit on woman.

UGHHHH

I feel very very very angry about all this VERY ANGRY.

Don't know what to do about anger.

And feel terribly embarrassed, like BEYOND embarrassed about the whole debt thing. truly.

very very very embarrassing for me.

ugh

Ns will never find the woman of their dreams.

They do not have relationships or feelings like normal people do.

A 'somatic' N will spend his whole life looking for sex. He is a playboy, a player, charming, cunning, deadly.

A 'cerebral' N gets his kicks from being clever, better than everyone else on the planet. Not so interested in sex.

These are sweeping generalisations of course.

They are looking for supply all their lives. The irony of course, is that they all think they are special, unique, better than everyone else.

In actual fact they all sing from the same hymn sheet and once you are onto them, you can spot one from outer space.

For future reference in any new relationship you may contemplate...they can only keep up the idealisation phase for six months. After this they revert to type.

So.....six months!!! protect yourself for six months.

If, as it sounds, you are a succesful woman in your own right, you are a prime target for these half-human freaks.

xxxx

This "insane" thing -- what is it?

The way I could describe it with him is that for years I've been trying to understand him and I've been thinking of his behavior or what he said in terms of 'me' (like my mind, or what I have known in life --- what I would be thinking if it were me, or someone that I have known in life) ..... but with all that has come to light now, I am beginning to think / realize that really he is not like me. I begin to realize that I CANNOT understand him at all. That I perhaps did not understand him. All this time, for example, I believed that he was keeping his promises. I mean, who makes promise after promise, after promise repeatedly for years and years and years and years and then ahve it mean nothing?

That makes no sense to me. In my mind or brain, I would have a trigger telling me something is wrong -- that I would need to make amends or carry around guilt etc.

Any time he has talked about people in the past -- it's always someone else's fault. It's very very odd. I believed it when he was telling it to me. I thought: Wow!!! What an amazing AMAZING man! He is SO good, SOOO generous (more generous and giving than anyone I have ever known). He is such a good person, really living his spiritual principles, while being surrounded by liars and cheats and horrible people. He's like a light shining in all that darkness.

He seemed constantly to be moving on, from one business deal to the next, from one contact to the next (the old one quickly forgotten). I thought it was amazing that someone could brush things off so relatively easily.....

Have been in a relationship similar to the one youre describing but without the weird woman and phonecalls. He left me in a lot of debt and had all my savings too. Only difference was he wouldn't let me go. I had to move into my cousin's house to get away from him. Yes, you do feel very embarrassed about it all in it's hard to talk about it until it all comes out in a rush and you have to try and make sense of it. You need counselling to get over this and you have to make it clear from the start with the counsellor that you know he has NPD.

sorry sp successful

gettinggrip -- LOL I keep laughing at your half-human freak description!!!

LOLL

speaking of sex --- this man was a MASTER. I mean truly truly good. In my opinion, it's really what can keep any woman allured and tied in. I feel seriously bound to this man, like in some way can't describe.

And I noticed that some women seemed attracted to him in some way when we were out.

But he's not good looking. So I did not think too much of it. In fact, it bothered me that I erally did not find him that physically attractive.

When I lived in Italy I was seduced by a most gorgeous man. Truly seduced. The guy was a massive player. I knew it. I resisted. He was expert and seduced me any way. I got out within a matter of months, clinging to my honesty and integrity (but went into a deep depression afterwards, cause he did get me good) .... Anyway. He was gorgeous. I watched every woman melt in his very presence. His "player"-ness made so much sense....

But this guy? This short, somewhat strange-looking guy???!! I NEVER in a million years would have pegged him as a player or any kind of threat. He didn't even seem to have any of the smooth moves the massive Italian player had (He was not obvious) That's what's also so weird in this. How can someone who I think is not even attractive get the women like this????

WEIRD

Gettingagrip's posts are very insightful about N. I can identify with a lot of them. Gaslighting (term taken from an old film about a man trying to make his wife think she's insane) is definately something you feel when in a relationship with a N and it's one of the things that stops you seeking help because you feel that everyone thinks you're mad and he's a great guy.

Ah! gettingagrip...found you.

Yep. He sounds like an N alright T464. You are going through the throes of an insanity and level of hurt that will subside once you come to terms with the sort of 'man' you have been dealing with. Feel sorry for the new woman. Feel very very very sorry for her. As I feel sorry for you.

gettingagrip is very wise and very compassionate and knows what you are going through. As I do. We are called survivors of narcissistic abuse. Once you stop trying to get it right in your own head, and realise that you can't - because you will never ever think or feel (feck all on the last one) like these inhumans do - you will be able to move on with your life and celebrate that he is no longer in it.

Honestly. You can start to breathe clean air again.

x

Yes unfortunately they do often come back, and back and back.

They only way to stop them for good is to frighten them witless. The way to do this is to find something that they would not survive...bad publicity, losing their job...and just hit them with it.

I have done this with my last ex-devil-N...and his mad N partner. They harassed and threatened me after our 'relationship' finished, so I got the police onto them, and told their commanding officer. This has stopped them for now.

The other way to stop them is to get yourself knowledgable, and get psychotherapy. It is very, very important to get someone who knows about NPD as a therapist.

xxxx

Narcissists are always VERY good lovers- it's part of the self love. But did you feel that during sex you could have been anybody rather than someone special?

The insane thing...gaslighting

Here's an example taken from a blog....

My ex used to change what side of the bed he wanted to sleep on and claim that I was the one who had usurped "his" side of the bed. His side preference changed weekly and he would claim everytime that I had made him switch sides. It was some crazy-making shit designed to make me seem like the bad guy and that he was the victim. Also, it made me question my reality big time.

This is when they say one thing, and then deny they said it , can be minutes or days later. you are told you are imagining it, or crazy. In the end you are crazy!!!!

listen to Amazonian Girl, she knows about this!!

Gettingagrip, I went to 3 counsellors about my N boyfriend and they just didn't seem to spot it and offered me the same sort of advice you'd offer in a regular relationship. This left me feeling even worse and more insane. Is there a register of therapists who specialise in NPD?

I read about ":gaslighting" ... I don't think he was actually doing it on purpose. I don't think he really was or is evil in his intent in that way ...

I jsut think he simply sees the world in his way and that is it.

It's weird -- like convinced lying?....

convinces self of lie!!!

I don't really want to go in for counseling. It's not my thing -- or way of dealing with things. I'm sure there must be other avenues to healing. Actually I know there are other avenues for healing....

Talking here I suppose is one of them.

And it's about learning true TRUE self-love. You know, the good stuff?! ! :-) {smile] .

... so here I am learning ....

I had no idea about this stuff with the Nar.

Had not seen that in him.

What else is weird is that I tried at various times to leave him. I thought it was an addiction to stay in this with him (especially when he'd go off in rants every few weeks). But then after a few weeks or months of swearing off of him, I'd call him again (the money -- I at least wanted to resolve the money issue).... and then the money thing would take longer and time would go on like that ....

I guess one good thing is that I never moved over to where he was. I always felt something was not right about that for me. I never gave in to so many things he wanted me to do,

I'm wondering if that's also why he picked the woman over me .... b/c she seems to be giving in to so many things he wanted to do.

Somehow I want to understand the situation with her --- I never chose her to come into my life. He brought her. But she has had an impact (albeit a negative one!!) I guess I'm looking for clarity there, too.....

BingleJells

I am sorry to hear you have been through this. You need a clinical psychotherapist. Are you in the UK? If you are you can do what I did and go to your GP and tell him/her that you need to be referred to the community mental health team. You probably also need anti-depressants.

Many women who have been the victims of these leaches are suicidal. And in huge debt.

T464...the problem with these half-humans is just that ...they are half human. It can be argued that they don't actually do anything they do 'on purpose'. Does a psychopath do anything 'on purpose'?

The give-away however, is that they do do these things...these behaviours are what they are. They are defined by them. They are driven by them. Everything they do, every single thing is directed towards getting their supply.

Nothing else matters.

-- leanring self-love, the GOOD stuff! ....

In the end and at the very very end of the day, once all this stuff is dissected (also, because I think or feel that we as women like to dissect and analyze these things in order to have a better understanding -- or at least, I do!!!) ....

At the end of the day, though it really is all about us and at the very end of the day has nothing, really whatsoever to do with these people! ... And more to do with us, how we feel about us and so on!

I've known some obvious players, for example, the married kind and did not need to go that road. They stuck out to me, they 'smelled', you know? ...... This one got me, it was a different kind. So I get to learn this. OK.
You know?

All these years I questioned myself because I thought: why don't I just go there? Move there? .. etc?? I questioned myself, but what I got inside was: 'Don't EVER go there! Because you will get sucked in and not leave' ... I knew inside that I needed my own home-base and that it was very important not to live with this guy. I could not explain it. I also knew I needed to have this experience because there was something to be learned from it (because I also wondered why I didn't just check out right away. I saw from the beginning he had abusive tendencies and we had almost nothing in common. The whole thing made no sense. Except to learn something.)

Now I begin very very slowly and maybe less slowly to see: Hey! DAMN GOOD thing I didn't move there!!! I am in a safe place here (well, with my parents ... but...)

I'd been thinking, gee maybe if I'd been more compliant like the woman, then I'd get the spoils she's getting out of this now (she got him at such a good time, I had all those many years of lean, of nothing, of being near destitute, starving, etc) That pisses me off....

but who knows?!!!!

does abuse go hand in hand with this Narc. (like violence??)

Think I need a new Dr, GAG. She wouldn't give me AD's and referred me to the NHS therapist who seemed to think I needed to communicate more with bf as 'he does love you.'

T464 you should be glad he's left you as you can now draw a line under it and start to rebuild your life. His new woman is under his spell now and will be feeling just like you in the future. These men should be vranded to warn other women to avoid them like the plague. The vampire/devil analogy is a good one.

^Question:

Are Narcissists violent?
Answer:

If a person has been diagnosed with the Narcissistic Personality Disorder, therapy, in most cases, can only mitigate and ameliorate his condition, but not cure it.

Only narcissists, who go through a severe life crisis, tend to consider the possibility of therapy at all. When they attend the therapeutic sessions, they, usually, bring all their rigid defence mechanisms to the fore. The therapy quickly becomes a tedious - and useless - affair for both therapist and patient.

Most cerebral narcissists are very intelligent. They base their grandiose fantasies on this natural advantage. When faced with a reasoned analysis, which shows that they suffer from NPD - most of them will accept and acknowledge the new information. But first they have to face it - and this is the difficult part: they all are deniers of reality.

Moreover, cognitively assimilating the information is a mere process of labelling. It has no psychodynamic effect. It does not affect the narcissist's behaviour patterns and interactions with his human environment. These are the products of exceedingly veteran rigid mental mechanisms.

Narcissists are PATHOLOGICAL liars. This means that they are either unaware of their lies - or feel completely justified and at ease in lying to others. Often, they believe their own lies and attain "retroactive veracity". Their very essence is a huge, contrived, lie: the FALSE Self, the grandiose FANTASIES, and the IDEALIZED objects.

Personality disorders are ADAPTATIVE. This means that they help to resolve mental conflicts and the anxiety, which, normally, accompanies them.

Narcissists sometimes contemplate suicide (suicidal ideation) when they go through a narcissistic crisis - but they are not very likely to go beyond the contemplation phase.

Narcissists are, in a way, sadists. They are likely to use verbal and psychological abuse and violence against those closest to them. Some of them move from abstract aggression (the emotion leading to violence and permeating it) to the physically concrete sphere of violence. However, I have seen no research which proves that they are more prone to do so than any other group in the general population.

The NPD is a newcomer to the zoo of mental disorders. It was not fully defined until the late 80s. The discussion, analysis and study of narcissism are as old as psychology - but there is a great difference between being a "mere" narcissist and having a NPD. So, no one has a clue as to how widespread this particular personality disorder is - or, even, how widespread personality disorders are (estimates range between 3 and 15% of the population. I think 5-7% would be a fair estimate).

© 2001-2007 Sam Vaknin. All Rights Reserved.
www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=77^

This above taken from a website from a very famous narcissist Sam Vaknin.

Of course you have to read his site in the full knowledge that he IS a N. With all that means!

Not sure what happened there! Quotes should have been in italics