Should I be cross if DH went to lap dancing club?

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...and spent £60 on private dances (we aren't poor and he doesn't spend money on much that is frivolous).

Other people seem to think I should be cross but I can't see it. Am I being a mug? Is it a sign of disrespect?

He got a bit of female attention outside the marriage. He was consenting. They were consenting. I knew he was going there. There doesn't seem like there is a risk of him forming a relationship with the women but if a woman behaved that way with him in a regular nightclub that seems more of a threat to me.

He came home horny as hell and seemed like he had a good break from the stress of his job.

AN-i didnt call you anything.if you have read more into any of my posts then perhaps that is because you are uncomfortable with something in your relationship,which others ahve speculated is the reason you started this thread.

this thread has proved that it is true that only scumbags visit lap dancing clubs,women who are 'fine' with their oh's visiting LD clubs are brainwashed,and lap dancers are either to thick to do any other kind of work or have been emotionally damaged in some way which makes them think selling themselves is somehow empowering.

so i was right all along.happy days indeed.

This thread has proved that some posters like to post in such a way that not so subtly rips into people in a personal way.

How on earth has this thread proved that it's true only scumbags visit lap-dancing clubs?

You have read the thread haven'y ou? Part of being able to have a reasonable debate is not to resort to personal insults, not to call in 'backup' when someone rightly objects to your name-calling, to listen to what other people have to say and to learn something.

No one is asking you to completely change your opinion, but to think about the subject in a more indepth way than just sticking to 'I'm right and you are all thick.scumbags/brainwashed'

This debate has certainly made me think about my attitude to the sex industry as a whole. DivaStrop - it appears that this thread has only helped you to become more and more rude towards other mumsnetters. Frankly you should be ashamed by the way you have behaved towards others.

here's a recent article from the Guardian that talks about the reality of lap-dancing clubs. It includes the following:

'One body of research on strip clubs in the US found that all dancers had suffered verbal harassment and physical and sexual abuse while at work; all had been propositioned for prostitution; and three-quarters had been stalked by men associated with the club.

Was Elena ever verbally abused, or propositioned for prostitution? "A lot of men are totally blunt, and will say 'I like bigger tits than you've got', or 'How much for a blowjob?' Sometimes men try to persuade you to go back to their houses or to a hotel room for sex. There's a lot of blurring of the understanding of what it is you're supposed to be doing and whether you're actually a prostitute.

"The clubs maintain a veneer of no touching, but touching is more standard than not," she continues. "If I had a boyfriend now and he said he was going to a lap-dancing club, I would consider it to be infidelity.'

Oh - and yes I have reported your post.

Kormachameleon - it's largely been about how some posters think men are scumbags who have no self restraint or social inhibition and find themselves unable to stop themselves acting on their instinct to grope women.

it's then degenerated into name calling and personal attacks.

really sad, really really sad.

im not too thick to get another job divastrop im actually qualified to work as an office/reception manager and im starting uni this year to study either pyschology or law after having got an A and a B in my a levels in both subjects.

nor am i emotionally damaged in anyway. im actaully quite confident in myself its just that i see the world differently to you and dont feel the need to resort to making personal attacks against people i dont agree with, as imo its comments like that that make you appear 'thick' not working as lapdancer. whats the matter could you not think of anything more intelligent to prove your point?

"if this is the case, has anyone mentioned male strippers and lapdancers ?"

Yes it's been mentioned.

What's received markedly less attention is the fact that there are comparatively VERY few examples of that. Or as I put it, the traffic is mostly one way. One answer for this seems to be that oh men are these really randy creatures not like women see, need to go and oggle in order to satisfy their libidinal appetites which are so much greater than women's. Thank god we've got prostitutes to provide a release valve for the more obsessive ones otherwise they'd be out raping. Rah rah rah. Utter shite.

but Lizinthesticks, there was some attempt to discuss the fact that men are so much more aroused by the visual than women. IMO strip clubs and lapdance clubs for women just don't take off so much because they are not frequented enough.

just because men like visual stuff doesn't mean they are randy ogres.

I agree.. the argument that prostitutes stop rape is a grossly inaccurate and stupid statement for people to be making.

As stupid as suggesting that lap-dance clubs make men rape.

Divastrop, Although it is bad that you have used insulting language, I can see that this whole thread has upset you and I'm sorry, I never intended to upset anyone by starting it. It seems like it triggers thoughts about difficult things that have happened to you personally and makes you react more strongly than someone who is simply taking part in a debate because it is interesting. I can understand this. Sorry if I am reading between the lines and getting it all wrong.

I don't feel negatively towards you.

this article explains my objection to lap dancing clubs

The above article was posted on another thread about whether feminism should be taught in schools.

I'm really saddened by the fact that there are still women who work in these sort of places, and women who enable their husbands to go to these places. It debases all of us.

I came in here to give a male opinion, i was shot down by a few in this thread for that, and was asked some questions which i did my best to reply to. I was then accused of all sorts by some, I does seem that she does have some strong issues and is rather emotive about the subject so unable to debate it without losing it and resulting to name calling, which im also guilty of after she accused me of many things not true.

Interesting article Quatro.

My main argument in this thread has not been about the 'rights and wrongs' of lap-dancing clubs but the attitude from many that men who frequent them are variously Gropers, scumbags, rapists etc. or that they are unable to control their sexual urges.

I absolutely object to that attitude as much as I object to the idea that some young girls are labeling themselves as sluts and whores.

I do think it's quite amusing that on the site where that article is posted there are at least two images which may contribute to the problems re objectification mentioned in the text.

Also this bit:

"Sex - currently one of the biggest illegal businesses in the world - is just as much a human rights issue, a fact that becomes apparent as soon as someone explains to teenagers that girls as young as 14 are being lured to work in bars and restaurants in the UK, only to find themselves locked up in flats and forced to have sex with hundreds of men.

If sex-traffickers habitually abuse women as ?whores? and ?sluts?, what does that say about teenagers who use the same language on social networking sites? Do they really want to behave like men who so obviously despise women? What do they think about boys just a bit older than themselves who pay for sex with prostitutes? There needs to be a moral code which would allow teenagers to explore sex on terms which aren't degrading to themselves and their friends."

I do not think it is fair to draw paralells between prostitution and the kind of lap dancing clubs we have been discussing in this thread. Though I do accept that some posters view lap-dancing as a form of prostitution.

"there was some attempt to discuss the fact that men are so much more aroused by the visual than women. IMO strip clubs and lapdance clubs for women just don't take off so much because they are not frequented enough.

just because men like visual stuff doesn't mean they are randy ogres."

Yes there was some attempt to discuss it - I know because I posted a link to an interesting report on a study that provided evidence to refute the notion that men are somehow more visually orientated.

However, I do believe far too many men (and women!) think men need the visual. They've been socialised into a set of roles and practices that fully expect them to respond to - well - porn, basically. And if not porn, images that aren't too many steps up from that. In other words, there's nothing sufficiently biological about this "need" for the visual. There's no immutable core of biochemical crap or brain function underpinning this. Although god knows, that's the dominant assumption - and one that is implicit in quite a few posts on this thread. So much so that it's become pretty much a common sensical point of view. Very, very damaging and dangerous.

I'm just going to read the article you linked to Liz, I'm having trouble getting it to load.

Having just searched the web though - I can find several studies which say the opposite.

You say in the post where you linked to the study that "So, to the extent that men are more dependent on the visual, I firmly believe that this is entirely due to culturally specific (gendered) practices - the context in which men are raised ie."

this is your belief, but without proper study neither of us will know for sure I guess. I personally belive men ARE stimulated by the visual but I also think women can be too, I certainly am. How much less than the average man I don't know.

Oh - I forgot.

No one answered my question. Is it ok I f I ask again incase it was missed. I'd love to hear people's responses:

"question to all. If your husband had to go to a lapdancing club, was not allowed to NOT go, and HAD to have a dance...

Do you think they would become so aroused that they would attempt to grope or touch the dancers?"

I've managed to get it to load I think.

INteresting. The report isn't saying that men are not stimulated visualy, just that it's a myth that they are more visually stimulated than women

"As they hypothesized, the brainwave activity of participants was markedly different when viewing erotic images versus non-erotic images. But a finding they didn?t expect was that female participant?s response was similar to men. In a prepared statement, lead author Andrey P. Anokhin explained:

"Usually men subjectively rate erotic material much higher than women," he says. "So based on those data we would expect lower responses in women, but that was not the case. Women have responses as strong as those seen in men.

The authors propose that previous findings from other studies which found men to have a stronger response to erotic images than women may have as much to do with research methods, as an actual response by men or women.

This study, which itself carries several limitations, and I would argue more than a few major theoretical flaws, is still one of the first to offer statistically significant empirical evidence that both women and men respond subjectively and significantly to visual erotic material. Which is good news for those of us who believe that our response to sexual or erotic imagery may be a bit more complicated than X or Y. "

"I personally belive men ARE stimulated by the visual"

I am in complete agreement - were this not true there would be no porn industry with a profit margin greater than the GDP of I dunno China. You get the idea.

My question is simply WHY they are.

Research will never settle this conclusively. However, what we do know is that we - men and women - have the capability to reason and act autonomously. Men ultimately need not be libidinal dupes. If we as people weren't capable of changing the conditions in which we live we'd still be in caves clonking each other with clubs. So - we're more than capable of addressing prejudices and exploitation. What's needed is the awareness and will.

OK - I get you Liz I guess that a society where women don't choose to work in these clubs would be better? Trouble is the money is there to earn and some women do choose to work there, just as some men do choose to go there. I guess I have a different attitude towards men who would go to a lap dancing club for a bit of fun (Stag-do's etc) and those who do it on a regular basis, go on their own, get all their sexual kicks that way, and view all women the same.

Perhaps that makes me a little confused or hypocrytical? I dunno. I wouldn't throw my OH out if I discovered he had been to a lap-dance club on a stag do but I would be upset if he was getting his sexual kicks that way frequently.

Beanie are you implying the husband would not have a choice whether to go or not?

Liz a lot of what you have posted I agree with - I am not implying that men are wrong to become aroused when faced with a lap dancer but some men then make the mistake of acting on it - as dancers have admitted. Clubs make their money from the alcohol that is consumed within their premises and lap dancing is one way of drawing groups of men in.

My previous thread suggested that a lot of 'male behaviour' is dictated to them and peer pressure contributes to this. Men are not openly critical to other men with regard to lap dancing because it could be seen as an invitation to question their masculine behaviour. I will agree that I can only come to this conclusion based on men I have known.

With all choices comes responsibility(sorry being geeky yoda type now!)and those choices can heavily be influenced by the actions of others. I am not saying this is right only that this is what happens.

SOmething that is quite interesting here is how utterly entrenched the anti-sex position is. I think the core of it does come from the Victorian attitude that sex is something men want and it is women's job to control and restrict their access to it (ie rationing it like doggy treats). Objections to women who either charge an agreed hourly rate for sexual services or are willing to have sex without insisting on 'commitment' often stem from the idea that women like this make 'decent' women's jobs harder ie if people's access to something is restricted and they find a way of getting it elsewhere, then whoever was restricting it, for whatever reason, is going to percieve a threat.

LindenAvary - "Beanie are you implying the husband would not have a choice whether to go or not?" yes I am. Just say all choice was taken away and he had to have a lap-dance. Do you think he would become so aroused that he would attempt to grope or touch the dancers? Even if he was drunk?

oh - and Flounce much! (not you LindenAvary!)