Should I be cross if DH went to lap dancing club?

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...and spent £60 on private dances (we aren't poor and he doesn't spend money on much that is frivolous).

Other people seem to think I should be cross but I can't see it. Am I being a mug? Is it a sign of disrespect?

He got a bit of female attention outside the marriage. He was consenting. They were consenting. I knew he was going there. There doesn't seem like there is a risk of him forming a relationship with the women but if a woman behaved that way with him in a regular nightclub that seems more of a threat to me.

He came home horny as hell and seemed like he had a good break from the stress of his job.

Liz, I would be happy on a variety of levels, some deeply personal.. am I enough? Why does he need to look? Did he get turned on? Did he jeer? Take the piss? Discuss with other men how much he liked someone's body? Forget he was mine, a father of three? etc and on another level, disappointment that he didn't see the tacky and vile purpose of the place, that he hadn't grown up and beyond schoolboy tittilation and that he wasn't moral enough to avoid such a place. The equality and respect issues are in my reasonable mind but not my emotional response to my own DH visiting one of these places, these are more about reasons that i feel they shouldn't exist.

Unhappy!!!!

For me the thing about lap dancing clubs is that there is a suggestion that women and children potentially are at a risk of sexual attack if they live in close proximity to them. I accept that this has not been clearly proven but would welcome further investigation into this although again the evidence would have to be provided by a 3rd party to prevent bias.

There is also the shift in ' normality' that I am concerned with bearing in mind the difficulty in maintaining relationships and the outcome for children of a broken one.

The op mentioned people being given the option of sexual education to include relationships and to consider all the variations of them. I believe this to be a good point. Consider a young male who has regular access to lads mags, lapdancing clubs and internet porn day or night. What from his experiences of life contribute to the (sad) fact that male suicide is on the increase. Does the above affect in any way how he forms relationships with other human beings?

I think that suggestion is wrong though to be honest. I have seen the 'stats' trotted out but I don't think they are

a. Conclusive
or
b. untampered with.

By that I mean you can get statistics to say what you want either by phrasing questions in a certain way or by interpreting them a certain way.

I'm not really sure what broken rlationships have to do with the discussion either. Also not sure what male-suicide has to do with access to porn.

Sure - all people need a well rounded view/education which gives them the widest understanding and experience of other people, places, lifestyles etc.

I just don't think denying that Porn acts merely as a titlation for some men is the right way to go.

A friend of mine has a 13 year old son. He has a mobile phone which her and her husband pay for. A few months ago his bill was inexplicably £400! They discovered that he was downloading pictures of 'hollyoaks babes' - nothing to risque but the kind of thing that would interest a pubescent boy.

While they were mad at him about the £400 his parents really didn't want to give him the idea that sex and sexual feelings were a bad thing. In the end they dealt with it really sensitively by explaining that all boys and girls get to an age where they start to feel sexually about things and that getting those sexy feelings about models/pop-stars/tv personalities was not an awful thing.

personally I think this is a very good example of parents being open and honest with their child and not creating a situation where he felt uncomfortable about htose feelings.

sorry - not clear: when I say the stats I was responding to

"the thing about lap dancing clubs is that there is a suggestion that women and children potentially are at a risk of sexual attack if they live in close proximity to them. I accept that this has not been clearly proven "

lol@'won the thread'

beanieb-i dont have any personal issues with LD clubs,no.when i was with xp these places were very few and far between as far as i know.i did,however,used to have the view that all porn is bad and evil and only viewed by perverts for a while after splitting with xh,but that was because he viewed it in secret(at my expense)rather than being with me.

no,enough time has passed and i have moved on emotionally enough to no longer have any 'personal' issues with these things.now its about me being stronger for the experiences and knowing my own mind wrt what i consider acceptable.

and as i am only educated to GCSE level this debate is going way over my head now

Beanie the example you gave is a great one but not all teenagers have access to such a good relationship. I'm all for open and honesty, however where as parent's do you draw the line? Not all sexual feelings are seen as 'good' in society and the lines can be blurred such as a man having sex with a 14 year old - is this ok if both consent or something more sinister?

And probably going a bit of tangent! but the rise in lap dance clubs is part of the general over sexualization that is happening within a lot of industries. There will always be some advantages to any changes but equally there will be disadvantages ( potentially contributing to relationship breakdowns according to Relate) and sorry can't see how being treated as an equal alongside a man still means in certain 'careers' I have to flash my tits, smile and gyrate my arse into some unknown man's crotch in order to earn money.

Lizinthesticks: I agree that workers should band together against exploitative conditions (whatever the industry) - there are organisations for sex workers to join though sadly some of them seem to be mainly headed up by mouthy self-publicists who are not and never have been sex workers themselves.
FOr catering industry workers, there is also the problem that many of the most exploited are illegal immigrants/trafficked people with poor English and few contacts so it's harder for them to band together with others.

To other posters: I don't think having sexual contact with other people is soemthing anyone has a blanket right to - but then no one has a right to enforce monogamy on another individual, either.
And I very, very much doubt that the sex industry has anything to do with increases in the male suicide rate or even the increase in relationship breakdwon which is more to do with women's financial independence.

SGB - another valid point (financial independence) although it could be also seen that women don't have to put up with behaviour they don't agree with because they are able to walk away.

One final point. If men in lap dancing clubs know that paying for a private dance is just for a sexual thrill and nothing more why do the clubs have to hire mainly male bouncers to physically remove anyone who breaks the no touching rule. Dancing is so empowering that you rely on a more powerful individual to remove overexcited men. Would you do it if there were no bouncers to protect you? Dancers also need to be protected further by being sent home in taxis. Very liberated!

"Not all sexual feelings are seen as 'good' in society and the lines can be blurred such as a man having sex with a 14 year old - is this ok if both consent or something more sinister"

obviously - that's illegal. I would want my children to act within the law, but then again having said that I have done things which are illegal!

Lap dancing isn't as far as I am aware!

"can't see how being treated as an equal alongside a man still means in certain 'careers' I have to flash my tits, smile and gyrate my arse into some unknown man's crotch in order to earn money. "

I think many people have stressed that lap women don't have to do any of this unless they want to. or at least that those of us who have 'supported' lap-dancing have consistently said we think it's ok so long as it's a choice.

"One final point. If men in lap dancing clubs know that paying for a private dance is just for a sexual thrill and nothing more why do the clubs have to hire mainly male bouncers to physically remove anyone who breaks the no touching rule" Because some people are idiots. men and women.

I thik we can all agree that some men have less understanding or appreciation of rules or of what is acceptable. I am sure in some cases drink is to blame (wooo let's ban drink ). Bouncers are there to stop those people who are idiots.

"I agree that workers should band together against exploitative conditions (whatever the industry)."

I have to say that in various places above you seem to have gainsaid this by emphasising the right of the individual. Or, if not the individual precisely, those in the limited context of your own experience - who sound like they had comparatively good terms and conditions.

But if we don't agree on that, I suspect we'll disagree even more on what the primary goal of a collectivity of sex workers might be. From your previous comments I conclude that you think the aim would be to improve conditions for all sex workers (e.g. on the grounds that prohibition would make it worse). A better primary goal, imo, would be to increase the opportunities for exit - which in turn would involve attacking sources of demand and supply (rather than reforming or even "enhancing" them).

I say this because I do honestly believe that masculinity is increasingly constructed around libidinal bullshit. It could be so different - there is absolutely no necessary reason why this has occurred.

Lindenavery: workers in many industries are sent home in taxis if they work antisocial hours irrespective of gender. Also, nearly all nightclubs/places where alcohol is served have bouncers to deal with arsehole behaviour - this is another example of how bad and stupid people exist and misbehave but the badness, stupidity and misbehaviour is neither exclusive to the sex industry nor the fault of the sex industry.

LIzinthesticks: why do you think that the primary goal of a sex workers' collective outhg to be basically putting an end to sex work? Setting aside the exploitation and coercion, WHAT is wrong with paying for a sexual experience when the person being paid is someone who has chosen to do the work? And I don't buy that argument that 'all' sex workers are too dumb or drug addled or evil to choose for themselves so need to be protected against making their own choices. NOw there are plenty of men who do not want to have sex outside of a mutual-desire relationship and that's up to them, but plenty of other people want to have sex but are not, for instance, in a relationship (and don't want to pick up a random stranger in a club in case said stranger turns out to be a nutter), or they want to have sex with a person they find physically attractive when they themselves are not that physically attractive, or they want a particular sexual fantasy that is not that appealing to most partners (I don't mean stuff that's dangerous or painful, I mean stuff like the bloke who just wants you to walk up and down the room in a pair of flipflops or wank him off with an oven glove). If you have a specific sex fantasy that is boring to everyone else, what is wrong with paying to have it catered to?

I did not say it should be putting an end to it. I said it should be attacking what I deem to be an industry that's got out of hand, as a consequence of masculinity constructed by a ridiculously overt focus on the libido. Although it's a bit of an exaggeration, I will say that unless you're a man in the company of a lot of other men you can't really get a sense of just how fucked up it's all got.

Secondly I'm not even getting close to bringing some notion of false consciousness into this so don't try pinning that on me, with the all sex workers are too dumb rejoinder. I really do not think you can find that in my previous post.

Nor do I rule out the possibility of consenting practices - or, if you like, mutual objectification.

What I am saying is that a lot of this could be catered for without the burgeoning growth in the sex and porn industry. An industry not renowned for its high standards of terms and conditions, shall we say.

So no - I'm afraid your points there are all wide of the mark.

rofl @ 'wank them off with an oven glove'

that image will stay with me now and re-appear at an inappropriate time

< eyes oven glove speculatively >

you are obviously a little worried to put it on here. I know i wouldn;t be happy

Can I just say - a spunky oven glove isn't a particularly appetising prospect and could all would-be experimenters PLEASE buy a separate glove reserved for the purpose.

sgb: "there are plenty of men who do not want to have sex outside of a mutual-desire relationship"
Mutuality is a fundamental requirement of equality.

Liz:"masculinity is increasingly constructed around libidinal bullshit". Absofreakinglutely, just as femininity is increastingly constructed around cartoon sexuality bullshit.

the issue, it seems, for all of us, is choice. We all believe that things done against someone's will are wrong. But some of us believe that if one individual makes a choice - that's it. No further analysis required. No enquiry into her teenage educational opportunities, her parenting, her current financial straits, dependents, addictions, the alternative were she not to prostitute herself.

Others, (ME!) believe that all those things impact upon whether the woman can really be said to have had a choice.

I had a great education and an interesting career. I'm a bit fucked up about some things, but possibly no more than anyone else. I own my own house. My partner works and earns enough to keep us. My children are happy, well-fed and have everything they need. We;re all just about to go on holiday for the first time. I am middle-class. Things are okay.

Were I to choose to make a bit of extra holiday pocket-money by getting down on my knees and sucking off a sixty-year-old man for sixty quid - well, yes, that would be my choice.

That would be Choice.

I wonder how many women as a percentage of the sex industry are like me? I wonder how many of them really have Choice?

HOw many people in shitty low-paid jobs (because they don't have many qualifications or family support or even the legal right to work in the UK) have Choice, OBM? Just what is it that makes sex work such a special case and so much worse than other jobs? (And are you implying that there is something inherently bad and wrong and disgusting in a sixty-year-old man wanting sex at all?

no, i'm implying that theres something inherently wrong and bad and disgusting in a sixty-year old man being convinced that paying another human being to suck him off, regardless of whether she desires him or not, is the way to go.

off on holiday now. shit, could;ve really used that sixty quid.

What makes sex such a special case is the confluence of two spheres of iniquity. First, the gendered, and secondly the economic. Incidentally, that is partly where your catering analogy begins to crumble.

Immediately I have to qualify this by saying that "sex" should here be regarded as hetero-sex, where the man is the client and the woman the provider. Exploitation of an economic kind can obviously prevail in other sex work contexts but not the gendered form.

bloody well, and neutrally, said.