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Relationships

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Should I be cross if DH went to lap dancing club?

860 replies

ActingNormal · 03/08/2008 21:49

...and spent £60 on private dances (we aren't poor and he doesn't spend money on much that is frivolous).

Other people seem to think I should be cross but I can't see it. Am I being a mug? Is it a sign of disrespect?

He got a bit of female attention outside the marriage. He was consenting. They were consenting. I knew he was going there. There doesn't seem like there is a risk of him forming a relationship with the women but if a woman behaved that way with him in a regular nightclub that seems more of a threat to me.

He came home horny as hell and seemed like he had a good break from the stress of his job.

OP posts:
beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:09

"I'm asking what they did before those things existed and up until now you've refused to answer. "

If I fundamentally disagree with your first assertion then I can't answer the question ... before your idea of when porn became widely available, 'what did men look at', with anything other than... erm, porn of course.

yes I agree, The sex industry has become mass-market in the past 30 or so years but that doesn't mean men were not enjoying pornography more than 30 years ago.

You are using this as an example to prove what theory exactly?

No one is saying "that women ought to be commodified or prostituted to service these visual needs." ... Ought to be? Of course not, but choose to be...? I would imagine they have a perfect right to choose to be involved in these industries if they want to. Yes there are people in the sex industry who are exploited and used but what about those who are not, those who get something they want from being in that industry, be it fame or cash.

beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:10

of course - no woman should be forced into that work, of course not. But don't judge the ones who choose to do it.

ActingNormal · 10/08/2008 18:14

I don't find close ups of body parts vulgar and degrading and wouldn't want to think of my own body parts as being disgusting or shameful in some way. I don't want my children to think there is anything disgusting or horrible about their bodies either. Don't you think women are beautiful? Don't you feel beautiful?

OP posts:
ActingNormal · 10/08/2008 18:19

And going back to "Ogling in the street doesn't count" - do you really think women don't dress in a way that they think men will find sexually attractive? Isn't it natural that they do it? Short skirts and low tops aren't the only clothes that men find attractive.

OP posts:
beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:23

But ActingNormal, I seriously don't think that every time a woman gets dressed she is thinking of how she might look to men. I would love to have the time or the energy to do that. Or do you mean that clothes are made with that in mind, we pick stuff which we know makes us look good? Even then I don't think when I sling on my jeans and a jumper to go to work I am even one little bit thinking about how I will look to men...

dittany · 10/08/2008 18:23

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dittany · 10/08/2008 18:25

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beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:25

Ah - so you think porn is just that produced on printed matter of on film. I can see why we are mis-understanding eachother.

beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:26

sorry, or on film...

dittany · 10/08/2008 18:28

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ActingNormal · 10/08/2008 18:32

Dittany, it sounds like you have very high standards for what is beautiful. I don't. I don't think you have to be like women in Vogue to be beautiful.

And if I look around me I wouldn't say most women are wearing baggy shapeless clothes to hide their figures and no make up.

OP posts:
beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:35

"is the guy at the lap-dancing club going to pay to sit next to a very beautiful woman but with no-make up and unrevealing clothes who won't get her breasts out for him"

gosh - why would that woman even be in a club like that?

Fatbob · 10/08/2008 18:37

women dont ever go to them beanieb, you must know that by now ;)

dittany · 10/08/2008 18:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ActingNormal · 10/08/2008 18:49

When did I say the only thing beautiful about women is tits and ass?

Do you think men would get turned on by a butt ugly bint waggling her bits in his face? She has to have beauty or he wouldn't enjoy it! Of course he would pay to see more of a slightly less beautiful woman than see less of a more beautiful woman in a place like that. I'm not denying men go there for sexual titilation not just to admire beauty, but if they found the women ugly they wouldn't be titilated by them!

OP posts:
beanieb · 10/08/2008 18:52

Actingnormal thinks it is more than just tits and arse

Ditanny thinks of it as just tits and arse?

Fatbob · 10/08/2008 18:52

anf fannys

Fatbob · 10/08/2008 18:52

and fannys

ActingNormal · 10/08/2008 18:58

ha ha of course fannies, probably more than arses (the "commonly acceptable" way I should think). Sorry to be crude, I just couldn't help it

OP posts:
jellybeans · 10/08/2008 19:31

'Men are not as visually beautiful as women so women.' That's probably a result of social conditioning, the same thing that makes us believe that women age and men get
distinguished. And are you saying all women are naturally more beautiful and men like paying to watch them dance OR that just certain types of women are wanted by men; young, skinny, moulded women. Women who look like sex objects in oher words. I would not explain it my daughters or sons like that
. I would say some men like seeing women as sex objects and some women facilitate that. I think men are just as attractive.

onebatmother · 10/08/2008 19:39

beanieb, I think you misunderstand the concept that the Victorians 'invented' pornography. It's not claimed that the depiction of sexual acts did not exist before the 19th century, but that the victorians were responsible for naming it. So they invented the concept of "sexual imagery which is intended only to sexually arouse", and they gave such material the name "pornography" which means literally 'writing about prostitutes', or (interestingly) in some etymologies 'writing about female slaves sold for prostitution'.

This was associated with the Victorian obsession with classification and taxonomy, and can be seen as an attempt to control who had access to such material, at a time when photography and photographic reproduction was becoming democratized as a technology. The governing class feared that the dissemination of pornography would be expanded by photographic reproduction (as it has been by every new technology, as you say) and would 'corrupt' (ie distract and destabilize) the working-classes whom it needed to build the Empire etc.

They passed the Obscene Publications Act which made it illegal, and the word appeared in the dictionary for the first time in the same year.

These events were also associated with the discovery of Pompeii, with its vast wealth of erotic imagery on public display, and the immediate burying of this material in the Secret Museum at Naples. Like the Secretum at the British Museum, this was accessible by 'gentlemen and scholars' only.

The difference, incidentally, between the attitudes to sexual imagery of the Romans and the Victorians encapsulates the meaning of pornography. A fashionable Roman displayed sexual imagery quite openly in their homes - above the dining table, say. They hadn't developed an idea of privacy (which obsessed the Victorians) and consequently were as happy to have images of sex as images of hunting.

Sorry, this is a rather dry precis. It's actually quite an interesting area - there is a documentary series called "Pornography: The Secret History of Civilization", the first episode of which deals with this period.

So I'd completely agree with Dittany that pornography as we know it is imagery of sexual acts, reproduced (crucially) on an industrial scale; and that therefore most men of the 19th century wouldn\t have had access to it.

I don't think I'd place the beginning of the 'mainstreaming' of porn post-fifties, as Dittany does, though - I think that the invention of film (another case of technology expanding porn's reach) was key; as was the beginning of democratization of travel, to Europe and the Colonies, which exposed the middle-classes to cultures which didn't legally restrict access to sexual imagery. I'd say 1920s/thirties.

But the real turning point came later, in the 70s, when porn, by an astonishing sleight of hand, managed to associate itself with progressive politics, and porn films started to be shown in mainstream cinemas in the States.

And then again in the early 90s, fuelled by the availability of VCRs, which meant that porn could be viewed in the privacy of your own home. This caused a massive expansion in the industry (as well as the depressing development of 'gonzo' porn) - a huge section of LA became Porn Hollywood.

Once porn has become truly industrialized, it is bound by the rules of capitalism and must continually find new ways of making its consumers buy what is effectively the same product. It has done this by becoming simultaneously more 'extreme' and more 'mainstream' - a product, nothing more, nothing less.

It has been an incredibly successful marketing coup, this repositioning of porn as a consumer choice like any other.

Anyone who dislikes porn is now defined as 'anti-progressive', since modernity has been carefully associated with consumption, and freedom has been redefined as 'freedom to consume' and/or 'sexual freedom' (as opposed to, say, political freedom, which would be very dangerous).

onebatmother · 10/08/2008 20:01

I will be sooo proud if I have bored the debate to death..

lizinthesticks · 10/08/2008 20:02

Great post.

lizinthesticks · 10/08/2008 20:03

Uh, the long one.

onebatmother · 10/08/2008 20:29

it was very long

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