What do you make of this?

[Looksaroundinconfusion]

Last night H and I had a takeaway. Usually I would order a main course, rice and a side dish. He moaned that the side dish made the takeaway much more expensive so I didn't order it. When the food arrived I divided it completely in half and the portions were pretty small.

When he came in he looked at his portion and looked really irritated and then looked to see how big mine was. I explained that we had exactly half each because I had not ordered the side dish I would usually have had. We ended up rowing and he then said that as the man, the breadwinner and as he was bigger than me he should have had the bigger portion, he needs more calories etc. I am a SAHM and this morning he had told me that I need to get a job and start contributing to the house. I have had an easy ride for 5 years apparently.

I would be grateful for any opinions on this please, because it left me quite bemused. I really do want honest opinions.

I think he feels threatened by what could happen if you re trained. Then you would have a fantastic job, lots of money and could afford to leave him.

At the moment, he keeps you down so you have no choice but to stay.
Even though he acts like such a prat that you want to leave, it would be very difficult for you to do it at the moment and that's the way he wants it to stay.
You don't have the choice at the moment.

He doesn't have respect for degrees because (if I'm right?) he doesn't have one, and he feels undermined by this fact.

If you got one you would be 'better' than him, and he can't cope with that.
He may be a traditionalist with very chauvanistic views or he may feel insignificant and not very good about himself, despite his achievements, which is why he needs to make you feel bad so you do not go on in life and surpass him.

You being dependant on him allows him, in his mind, to have control and if you were not dependant the control (which makes him feel powerful adn good) would be gone.

It would be hard to leave him, you know that and only you can decide what the best course of action would be in that respect.

But you MUST NOT sacrifice your life for his.
Re train in whatever field you want, it will be hard if you stay with him, you will be running the house and the dc's as well as studying but it can be done and if you want it enough it will be worth it.

Accept that you may not have very much money for a while, but it will not always be that way if you stick to your course. You will have financial independance to make your own choices in your own life.

He is scared of this happening so he will make it very difficult for you. But you should be more scared of it NOT happening adn what that will mean for your future.

Just quietly go ahead and do what you want to do. You're not sacrificing the children's welfare by doing it, you're not sacrificing your family. He is.

Good luck.xx

Just read your lastest post - well, he's not really supporting you at all is he?!!

Even if he does leave, you must still go to uni.
You will NOT have broken up the family by following your dreams, He has done that.

If you do seperate, it will be hard to juggle everything but it can be done.

CAn your parents help out? If possible sort things out on your own, if you ask for help you are giving him the opportunity to shoot you down and he then will have his 'control' by denying you the help.
It will only make you feel bad and more resentful.

Don't give up!

Just ordered that book LLGE, not to give to him, he would never bother to read it, looks good for me though so that I can read it have arguments at hand for next time he tells me how easy I have it.

Thanks for your responses Ivegotaheadache. I am going to go one way or another. Parents can't help out they live too far away but they did say they would help out financially when I was telling them about this situation but they don't have a lot themselves tbh. I will never ask him for help again. Someone said earlier on that at least I know where I stand now and thats true.

I just listen to the things he says and he is just his father all over again. The man that H has always criticised for being so controlling and selfish with money towards his mother. H is exactly the same to me. It sickens me actually, I can hardly stand to look at him at the moment. I know that deep down he knows what an arse he is being or he wouldn't get so angry and defensive about it. Money and not having to share it with his wife means more to him than anything else though.

Oh well I have just outed myself. Thought I was still on my name change.

Don't worry abouting outing yourself, at least you didn't accidently post a big picture of yourself.

Hi - just wanted to add something to the thread. You may actually be better off financially without him: firstly he will have to pay child support. second - you will probably be able to access uni hardship funds (speak to student support)tax credits and other benefits as a lone parent. When you are a couple they all take your partner's earnings into consideration whether or not you get to see those earnings.

nOworries, Amethyst, I've written my life story on mumsnet several times over! ah well.

Your 'husband' has no idea of what being a husband means! His understanding of it seems to be that he should never, ever make any sacrafice for his own wife ! What wows did he make when he married you! "I promise to carry on feathering my own nest and being unconcerned by my wife's distress". A man so like my x. I thought he was unique. There are so many of them out there. It's sad.

My x was living a comfortable middle-class lifestyle and I was not. I was struggling in every way imaginable. He gave me no support, emotional, practical, financial.......

YOUR LIFE WILL BE SO MUCH EASIER WHEN YOU LEAVE. Problems are less insurmountable when you aren't being dragged down by the weight of his negativity and lack of support and being eaten up with resentment.

The people around me now support me and encourage me, nobody is undermining me. So any problems are dealt with, I'm just hurdling over whatever I need to deal with now, as I feel stronger, happier and more confident. Less defeated generally. So, things that may seem like a struggle now may seem like an enjoyable challenge this time nxt yr.

He does sound very controlling.. The bit you mentioned about big brother, and you thinking he thinks very little of you, I know it seems that way but I think that is sometimes how controlling men treat women when they know the woman could do much better them.

It is their way of putting you down and keeping you there so you don't leave him...

LAIC, I too have had experience of this sort of behaviour from a partner in the past and found that reasoning gets you absolutely nowhere. Mainly because there is little chance of them saying, "You know what darling? you're absolutely right. I am a selfish stingy begrudging twit."

They just can't/don't/won't see it like that.

In my case, what worked for me was making a list of what I wasn't prepared to put up with any more. Felt silly writing it down but it was only for me to read. i.e I put that: I won't accept name-calling, I won't accept less than what I know is fair, I won't accept behaviour that makes me feel bad.

To carry it out, I found that I was wasting my breath with (eg in your case) "But that's not fair, I'm hungry too. You should have let me have the side order and then there would have been enough for both of us to be happy about"... blah blah. Fighting so hard is exhausting and humiliating and ultimately makes you look weaker.

I learned how to get tough. I (in your case) ordered the takeaway, including what I wanted. If any whinges came, it'd be "I want it so I'm having it". One sentence lines work really well. The other thing is picking one good sentence and repeating it in a non-confrontational way. Therefore him: "Yes but you don't pay for it and I think it's unnecessary so it shouldn't be ordered". Me: "I want it so I'm having it". Him: "Well I don't think you should and I say what goes blah blah. Me: "I want it... etc". Until he shuts the f*ck up. Works even better if you can avoid too much eye contact whilst making your statement.

In other words, you choose your stance and stick to it. He'll learn you mean what you say. Get in there first and be decisive and definate about what you want. Arm yourself with how much it would cost re childcare so you can snap back at him when he snaps at you re money.

If it has got to the stage where you "dread" asking him for money, he will have consciously or subconsiously picked up on your subservience which is feeding his domineering nature. You are enabling him to make you feel so bad, your boundaries are not as high as they should be. If he says something unfair to you or about you, ignore the whys and wherefores of exactly what he said and why it's unfair etc etc - just say "I won't be spoken to like that. You will not speak to me like that again". Repeat for as long as it takes! If you find it too much, say "I am going upstairs now. When I come down I expect that you will address me politely". Then leave the room. Don't put up with it!!!!

Sorry for long long post but it really strikes a chord with me, someone trying to reason with the unreasonable. Good luck x

Babyelephant. Excellent post. Are you a counsellor!?

I think that really is the only way to deal with a controlling man. I stopped wanting to 'deal' though. You're right though, reasoning does NOT work, and it is exhausting trying to get through to somebody like my x, and LAIC's husband.

Did this work for you? Did you actually turn around the attitude of a controlling man? Win some more of his respect (if it was worht having) or stop him trying to control you all the time?

Yes thank you babyelephant that was a really helpful post. In fact I have had some really great advice on here. It has helped alot reading other peoples experiences.

I do use the statement thing. When he starts I will often say firmly "Be Quiet" and just keep on saying it or "Don't speak to me like that" and keep on saying it till he shuts up. It wears you down though doesn't it? I am definitely going to do the "I want it so I am having it" statement as well. Often he moans about things and when I tell him to shut up says "I'm just saying, thats all", which winds me up even more. He keeps asking me to be friends now because obviously things are a bit frosty in amethystville but I can't just let this go, it's too big. I am not sulking as such but I just can't be arsed with his nonsense. I just got up and left the room with him in mid sentence earlier when he started spouting off about something.

Have actually found out something pretty good about the NHS, who I used to work for, in that while working for them they will sometimes assist you with studying degrees or other work relevant qualifications etc and you can then get onto a Graduate Scheme of some sort. Need to find out more. But that sounds pretty hopeful because then I could be working and studying part time and not have to worry about him and his money.

Glad you're on the right path to getting out of it and you're not just sitting back taking his crap. You can and will do this, you're very strong x

Thank you A8 & LLEG.

I'm not a counsellor LLEG, I have just had the benefit of lots of excellent advice over the years from my mother who is a fair and strong-natured woman and an expert at men management . Yes I did manage to change the behaviour of my ex p, although the relationship didn't last, we certainly parted as equals at least. I think that some men really are bastards whereas some are acting like one and don't realise how out of order they have become.

Glad you are looking further into your new career A8, you should definately pursue it. If Mr A8 questions it negatively, just say "It's what I want to do". Don't try and persuade him to see it your way if it's clear from the start he won't. In fact, the more you carry on, making calls, going for college interviews, getting funding sorted etc the more curious he will be and like a child I bet he will end up asking you about it if you're not begging him to listen to you any more. My mum always said that men like women who are interesting. Doesn't mean working, or career woman, but certainly a woman with her own interests that she pursues regardless. A bit of mystery also helps - don't tell them what you're doing all the time; be a bit late sometimes "Oh did I not mention I was going to be late? Sorry". (Don't jump in and tell them where you were immediately, wait for them to ask!!)

The main thing is to believe you are his equal then act like it. Occasionally question him like he questions you (this is very disconcerting but he won't know why). ie. Start up a conversation about something he does you don't like, go on about it in a picky way, then when he gets fed up, back out with "I'm just saying"... But do it subtley, ie not seeming like you're mimicking him. I would bet a fiver he will take a lot longer to get shitty than you think he would. This is because you're speaking his language and if you are assuming his role, he will assume yours, initially. That's why its a good leveller. NB: if he does get shitty straight away, and "spots" what you're up to, "Oh, tit for tat is it?" etc, that means he knows exactly what he's doing when he does it to you. This is more the sign of a bastard than someone acting like one.

Don't thank him profusely for every meal or treat as it will only serve to remind him of his paying power. Stay quiet sometimes. If you do say thanks, just say "Thanks for that" casually, as he pays. Don't go over the top. Order five things off a takeaway menu, or expensive wine in a restaurant occasionally. Be cheeky. This is not being grabby, it is re-educating him that you are an equal.

Generally the more you use the word "I" when speaking to him, the better. Make your world revolve around you instead of him. "I don't", "I won't", "I will" etc - all very powerful and will draw him in more than "You don't" etc - because they won't listen. Mean business, though. Only make statements you fully intend to back up or he won't take you seriously.

Long yawny post again from me but I have found these things useful through bitter trial and error and they have worked for me in the past.

BE,

Perhaps if I'd have acted like you advise in your insightful posts from the day I went on maternity leave, then my x would have some respect for me.

Maybe I initially felt grateful that somebody was going to look after me except, my gratitude became weakness and subservience somehow, and I didn't understand the massive payback when I resigned from my job, and it all became a very poisoned chalice. Being 'looked after' became being 'thrown a scrap'.

I did all the wrong things, but even now, your posts are still very useful to me because I still have to deal with him because of the children, and he is still trying to control me. I act in a completely different way now. I will NEVER again try to explain why I am doing something my way, or why I've made one decision over another. My way is the way now. The end.

Good for you LLGE! It is hard to change the status quo but it is certainly not impossible. In fact the hardest part is just getting your head together about what it is you want for yourself. Harder than it looks for someone used to putting everyone else first for years.

After that, the script almost writes itself because your attitude shapes the proceedings rather than the proceedings shaping your attitude. Once you have decided your stance, you don't have to spend so much time dealing with each situation blindly as it were, because you are not at the mercy of if you are in a brave mode, or a subservient mode, or a furious mode. You are in controlled "you" mode, which is the mode you chose for yourself when you thought about who you are and what you want.

When you have a little practice at making yourself clear (and in fact it's good to open difficult conversations with the phrase "I am going to make myself very clear. I.. blah blah") it becomes easier. (N.B That phrase is a good "sit up and take notice" opener ).

Great that you are not explaining yourself any more. It only leaves you wide open to critism. If you do find yourself slipping up, wrap it up with something like "Anyway. That's what I decided, so that's all you need to know really". If he continues, a firm "I don't wish to discuss it any further" in a neutral but firm tone is all that's required.

I think my xp's respect came back when he saw I was more interested in myself than him. He'd got so used to me fitting in around him, moulding myself to his needs/wants/moods, that it was like a cold shower when all that stopped. Of course in an ideal healthy relationship, you should care equally about your own self and your partner, but for one that's gone too far in your partner's direction, throwing all your emphasis onto yourself instead is a way to "balance" it, before it settles into the middle ground it should be in.

It sounds like you have had an unhappy time but that you are your own person now and are enjoying it. There is a peculiar enjoyment when you learn how to consistently put yourself first, I felt a bit naughty and very daring but the more you do it the more you become that firm strong person.

BE your posts are so helpful. I wish I had read them before I thanked H profusely this morning for taking ds to football when it is just something he should be doing anyway. You are definitely right about pursuing your own interests. I got a letter from my local MP yesterday, I wrote to him re secrecy in family courts. H saw the envelope and kept ringing me all day to find out what was in it. I didn't tell him because I did actually talk to him about it when I wrote the letter and he obviously just had no interest whatsoever. Am looking for a job now and won't talk to him about that much either. He keeps saying I am a martyr but I am not. I just don't want to talk to him about anything that is personal to me now. I realise once and for all where I stand with him now and for me there is no hope left of him treating me decently as things stood, so I will change things for myself and he can get on board if he wants to. Your posts are not in the least bit yawny or too long. They are very valuable to me and have really helped me out already.

LLGE - how strange. I too can almost pinpoint it to the day that I gave up work that H started to be a dickhead. I remember a few weeks before giving birth saying that we really should sort out a joint bank account once and for all and him making a huge scene about it. Looking back I realise that was when everything seemed to change but there is not a lot you can do when you are 9 months pregnant and you realise you are married to a pig apart from hope things will improve.

Excellent A86. You have absolutely the right attitude. Make changes for yourself, to achieve the things you want. If he wants to join in and support you then fine, if not, then at least you are making a life for yourself that doesn't revolve around him.

If and when you sense he is eventually genuinely taking an interest (and this won't happen overnight) then let him in on some things. But the moment you sense he has picked on something to sneer at, don't fall in the trap of defending yourself - just because he has played nicely for five minutes, doesn't mean you have to give him floorspace to be nasty. ie if he's asking nicely about your course, fine. If he then starts saying about how impossible it will be, how you can't possibly study and look after the household etc etc, unless its a genuine "how can we work this thing out together" query, bring the conversation to a close by saying "I'm sure I'll manage". (Again, the "I" factor). Keep pursuing your own needs, interests, dreams and don't let him have an opportunity to bring you down.

From what you have said, there are some positives here. 1) He obviously wasn't always a bastard, it has fallen into that pattern starting with the responsibility of being the breadwinner 2) He is interested enough to be bothered by what you do, it's just that it's slipped into negative interest rather than positive 3) Nothing you have said suggests he is in any way a bad father and I take it that he is a very good father. Lots to work with there. If you can picture the analogy that like he's a child who's had too much attention, he's become spoilt and selfish with the admiration he has demanded and you have willingly given, for being the breadwinner.

In another sense he is asking you to give him more to admire about you - as a person, not just "Mummy". Although he's responsible for it, if you are now pathetically grateful for every scrap he throws you he simply can't respect you in the way he should. Which is why you now need to take to the driving seat and lead the way by respecting yourself first. He will eventually follow, more than likely!

Your relationship has slipped into
parent/child and he doesn't want to be your "parent" IYSWIM which is why he's kicking against it so badly. You don't have to be earning to not to be the child in the relationship any more (although in some cases it does help); it's more about your state of mind and not seeing yourself as the needy receiver.

Some of your post is so accurate it is uncanny BE. The positives list especially. He is a great father, absolutely adores dc. I am desperate to change what has been happening up to now because I do think in spite of the positives that he is on the verge of turning into an absolute monster, should things continue as they are. The problem is that the nicer I am to him the more he seems to take the piss. I am not being nice to to fawn round him either, I do actually love him and want him to be happy (or I did). I don't think I am pathetically grateful for all that he does for me though, I have always given him a hard time when he starts his nonsense. Sometimes I feel like I am holding a dam back and if I even let one thing go with him he will just take over and take the piss completely.

The trouble is though, he does actually seem to want to be my "parent" in many ways. He is the nosiest man I have ever come across apart from his father, always reading my mail or asking about my phone calls. It is just when it comes to money that he does not seem to want to have anything to do with me. I feel that he would be more than happy to control every aspect of my life while quietly despising me for allowing it. It is a constant battle. However I have disengaged somewhat now, applied for some jobs, doing my studying etc.

He mentioned again the running and how it "eats" into his day (I go for 30 minutes tops, 4 x a week). He said we needed to discuss it I said "There will be only one discussion and that is when I tell you what time I am going and how long I will be gone for" and then just walked off. It is just the constant face pulling whenever I go and the constant expressions of surprise that I am "going at this time of night", "What about dd's dinner/lunch/snack/nap?" blah blah blah that is so bloody wearisome. I really can see why some women just allow themselves to be taken over sometimes.

By the way BE have you though about being a counsellor because I think you would be very good at it.

Thanks A86 . I don't know about that, I am just going on my experience and my mother's words of wisdom! Perhaps you would benefit from professional counselling, it may be something to consider for the future.

The running thing seems to be a long-running, as it were unresolved issue. This is bound to be draining and you could consider trying to resolve it for good. If it was me, I would start by saying you want to have a serious conversation with him as you want to come to an agreement regarding this running issue, once and for all. Make sure you are in charge of this meeting. Tell him you are giving him the opportunity to explain clearly what his issue is with you going running. Sit back and listen to him, without any interrupting, until he runs out of steam. Use the time to pick up on his main points and form a considered response. Perhaps he resents looking after the DC in the evening whilst you are running, because you have had "all day" to do it and that's his chill-out time. Is it that you go to the gym and running and he is jealous because he doesn't have the time? Try to consider if behind the whinging are any valid points.

If so, you could consider a compromise, ie going running 3x a week instead of 4 but go for 40 mins instead. Or you could go running earlier in the day for one of the sessions. This is not "giving in", giving in would be giving up running altogether.

If you offer any compromise make it clear you are in control, ie. "I am prepared to offer a compromise - (XXX). If we agree on a compromise, from now on I expect to be able to go running without you being negative every time, which is your side of the deal".

It may be worth a small compromise just to get peace of mind. If he whinges again after you have compromised, you can then say "I remind you that we have an agreement. I am going running now and when I come back I expect you to have a smile on your face and a cold glass of water waiting".

Is there any possibility he is worried (more than the usual) about money? work? job stability? Could this be making him worse? Many men would rather pick and niggle at things like running, or reading, or sewing, or Mumsnetting or any other harmless hobby their DP enjoys than admit they are very worried about job/money, especially if they have adopted a traditional "man of the household" role.

A86- just as an aside to all this wonderful advice, can you start to quietly put some money away for yourself? Even if its just the kids family allowance (or some of it) just pennies here and there, to build up an escape fund. A friend of mine did this literally with pennies, sometimes from change he had left around or dropped down the sofa.By the time she left him she had a little reserve to get her through the first weeks alone while she was getting benefits sorted.
Also leave his debts in HIS name, get your taken off joint things if you can. You can get a form for "a letter of disassociation" (?sp)from the credit reference agencies to take your name away from his, credit wise so YOU don't get a bad rating with him.(even at the same address)Then when you go it alone you can get loans/mortgages in the future without black marks against YOUR name because of HIS debt. Bankruptcy may seem a good way out, (and I appreciate is sometimes the only way) but it cocks up all sorts of future financial help once you have done so even if your circumstances improve as it stays with you for ages.

I don't go to the gym BE, the argument we had about the gym previously was that he wanted to join one alone and didn't want me to. I don't go out with friends because I have none here. I don't do anything in fact apart from my 4 x sessions of 30 minutes running a week and usually the dc are in bed or one of them is at school when I go. I don't have all day to do it as I am at home with dd. I go to the cinema....alone about once every three months - that is the sum total of my social life. Thats why it grips me that he has to whinge about it. His Mum never did anything, ever and I think that is how he thinks it should be for a wife.

He is not any more worried than usual. Things are good for him at work. Thats why he is saying all that stuff about how he doesn't see why he should miss out on nice holidays and joining a gym just because I can't afford it. He is now getting to a position where he is going to be able to afford to do all this stuff, just doesn't want to share at with me.

Bossybritches - good advice. I usually do have a bit stashed away. Also I am paying off small amounts on my share of the debts while considering my options re bankruptcy.

Well, there's certainly a lot of ground to cover if you want to try to pull it back on track. If not then definately continue protecting yourself financially and making plans for yourself. Whatever you choose to do about the relationship, continuing to develop your career and interests will stand you in good stead, with or without him.

I really hope you will eventually arrive at a result that makes you happy. It's a real shame that you don't get to go out with friends, or with your H for an evening now and then. I think it's important, where possible, for a partner to see you with friends and family because they realise that you are important to a lot of different people, who may like them - whereas they love you.

leave him, he is a cunt

LEM. I am beginning to think that sometimes you can work too hard at a relationship.

Yes amethyst, I am reading the last few posts and thinking IF I'd done things BE's way, MAYBE I could have made things work (to a tolerable level) and maybe he might have had some tiny amount of respect for me...

But fek that. It was never my responsibility nor my desire to mould him into a decent character. He wasn't and so I left and I feel so free and so relieved. Happier and more independent.

DON'T take it on as a challenge. MAYBE he could change a little, but so what really??

My vote is ditch the sod! hug whatever you do!

And thanks BE. You are very perceptive. I am going to sound American now (and no offence meant) but I took a lot from this thread.