Life post DH that refused to sign the post nup!

[mamato3rascals]

I’ve been so grateful for all the advice and support on here over the past year. It’s helped enormously in giving me the strength to leave, and to make sense of the situation along the way. So this is the continuation thread which I’m hoping will be a little calmer and less eventful..!

Hi OP, I want to try to give you some advice as I split up with my EXDH when one of our DC was the same age and took it very badly.
I might be wrong about this but I believe you are very much framing the separation, to yourself and your DC, as your decision. A choice. It leaves a thread for your DC (and stbexh) to pull, question, make suggestions, request justifications. You will probably be doing this to yourself as well.
You have been through the decision process and you know the marriage is not sustainable. You know it would result in an unhappy home life for your kids, a lifetime of discontent for you and stbexdh, with all the mental illness etc likely to follow from that.
So I suggest you reframe this as something that has happened to you, rather than a choice you have made. Your marriage has failed through a combination of factors outside of your control, resulting in you having to set up a new home - like if your house had burned down, or you had lost all your financial resources, or your husband had died (sorry). Imagine if these things had happened, how would you be talking to your DC? What would you be doing to comfort them and yourself? Do the same here.
It is a very sad time for your DC, let that sadness sit there. Don't try to say it's ok when it isn't. But plan nice things and say how shall we cheer ourselves up DD?
Your DD needs to know very clearly she isn't responsible for her DF or DM'S happiness, and a therapist would definitely help with this.

This is very very good.

Keep referencing his complete comfort with not being at all involved with them pre you moving out.
Any way you can.

Also some abusive men will use their daughters as wife substitutes to emotionally abuse and bully.

He has started this.
Be very careful of him.

She is not responsible for him emotionally but he is 100% prepared to use her for this.

I don't support parents who are abuser, hiding the abuse from their children. Far better to spell out that his awful behaviour forced you to leave.

It gives them a healthy template to reference.

Abuse ends relationships.

I'd be inclined to just keep her as busy as you can, time will be the only thing that will make her feel better, once she gets used to the new routine things will start to settle down for her.

I don't want to alarm you but my parents had a very sudden split when I had just turned nine, I remember all of it, it is all burned into my brain. I mean this kindly but I think there are a couple of things that have probably affected her badly, not telling her yourself about the divorce but giving your ex a letter which he then announced in front of them was an awful idea (of course he was going to do that).. also, not telling them you were moving out until you were moving out and then initially lying about the reason why.. it's like you are pulling the rug from under her feet all the time, and now she can't relax as she is left wondering what is coming next, everything is happening around her and she has no say. she didn't even get to pick out bedroom furniture etc.. it's just been decided for her and out of her control. You could do with giving her some autonomy, maybe start planning things, like a day out or a trip, a movie night, anything that she will like, let her take the lead.

I think you are doing a great job with her, but your ex will throw you under the bus at every opportunity so do NOT show him the post it notes, they are her personal feelings that she is sharing with you in a roundabout way, she needs to be able to trust you.. maybe you could write one yourself to her and you could use that as a way of low pressure communication/reassurance? She needs to know that when she has big feelings you will listen without judgement.. she will not get that from her dad and that will be his downfall in the end, as all he cares about is himself, no matter what he pretends, so she 100% needs it from you.

Forget your ex, and I mean that, you still thinking about what you can do to get him to behave as a better parent.. just stop it, you have zero influence now and it's not your responsibility anymore, while he can weaponise the children he will, so keep things matter of fact all the way now.

It’s interesting that she wrote she might be being “a bit dramatic”. Seems like she’s working through this, actually.

How about telling her “Yes, this is a sad time but we will all feel better each day. Life will have difficulties but also great joy. Let’s think together about some things to help us get through the hard parts so we can focus on the good ones.”

I only read your posts on this thread and I've just skimmed yours on the last one too.

He has emotionally abused you for years in front of your children and now he is also really ramping up his emotional abuse of your dd.

I do think you could do to reach out to a dv support organisation about this. I would advise you to email your concerns so they're on record, and ask if there is anything you can do to support her. It will then be on paper how he is behaving. Outline factually what he is saying and doing to her with the manipulation, guilt, etc.

I wouldn't show him the post its. He won't see it as that he needs to be an adult. If anything it may cause him to ramp up what he's been doing.

Have you agreed on phone calls when they're with each parent? Id have a sparse structure to them depending how long they go at each house. Or potentionally even no calls if its only a few days.

Agree. Not to mention that doing so suggests you believe that he just doesn’t know he’s distressing your DD and once he knows, he’ll change his behaviour.

The hardest but vitally important next step @mamato3rascals is to disabuse yourself of the idea that he is in any way capable of prioritising your DDs needs and emotions over his desire to punish you.

You want him to understand her distress. He is glad that she is distressed. His narcissism requires her to mirror him. She cannot be allowed to be happy if he is unhappy. Plus, her continued distress is the best revenge against you and controlling her, is a continuation of his (attempts to) coercive control you. If he can’t control you, he will focus on her. I’ve seen this play out too many times.

This is very insightful.

OP your DD might be mirroring the hesitation, guilt, doubts that she witnessed from you over the last few months.

I think she would benefit from a more brisk, matter of fact response to her emotional outbursts. She needs to see that you're 100% sure of yourself and what you're doing, so she can believe in you.

You have reminded me that as a teenager I once told my father that he hated our mother more than he loved us. He agreed without hesitation.

He certainly never put any of our needs above his own.

OP are your other children boys? Please don’t think just because they seem fine that his behaviour won’t impact them. You’ll have to support them and teach them about mental health and be on guard for them as well. I am the youngest and only girl. I wasn’t outwardly emotional like your daughter but did process everything happening constantly and I think it helped me in the long run.

By the way, this is why my mom left.

She learned to respond to his cruelty toward her by making it a joke. When he realised it wasn’t working any longer, he turned on us to get to her. That was untenable.

@mamato3rascals

THIS!!

You have given your daughter the skill of writing down her thoughts and worries, this is good. It won’t hurt the same after some weeks, it’s just very raw at the moment. She’s entitled to those thoughts, and the hurt, and to not like it happening.

Notice, she doesn’t say she hates YOU for splitting up the family, so what you’re telling her so far, about needing to break away from a relationship that was not good, is obviously going in….

It’ll be very different in a few months time.

@mamato3rascals sending much love and support.
You have been one incredibly strong lady and in time your children (particularly DD) will see this, and see their father as the emotional abuser he is.

Remember to give yourself some credit for everything you have done for you and the children.

Onwards x

@mamato3rascals

Kindly, also this.

I have just read your previous thread this morning and wanted to congratulate you on how far you’ve come.

Unfortunately, it was never going to be possible to spare your daughter this anguish because your idiot stbxh‘s behaviour is outside of your control.

I wanted to share the experience of my friend, whose ex weaponised the children, manipulated them and made them feel sorry for him, the divorce was all their mother’s fault, and so on and so on.

The children are now older teens, and see right through their idiot father’s tactics. They just roll their eyes when he starts on with how hard things are for him, knowing that their mother did all the hard graft over the years.

It was very hard on them when they were younger, they had to learn that they are not responsible for their father’s happiness. But with my lovely friend’s support they have thrived.

It won’t be easy for a while, but your kids are lucky to have you.

Yes, school handover is perfect for weekdays/termtime. He's much less likely to put on his pathetic performance at the school gate, and if he does there are useful witnesses.

OP I’m so glad to see you’ve finally moved out.

But my word, what a horrible bastard he is. He’s effectively emotionally abusing your DD. Make sure the school are aware. And absolutely do not agree to e.g. having Xmas with the prick.

@mamato3rascals You are right to think your dd needs consistency and reassurance from you both. When I say what I’m about to, please do not read this as a defence of your STBXH’s past or current behaviour because it is not.
But, from close family experience, I’d counsel you to be very careful about how you criticise their father to your children at this stage in the breakdown of your marriage and their family. Both because it is not helpful for them at this point- it might be something to work through with professional support at some point if they have been exposed to abusive behaviour in the home- and because it can be used against you if the children tell him.

I absolutely understand why you feel the need to explain/defend yourself, honestly I do, but stop it for all of your sakes. My sister in law did something similar- although in their case I think both parties were as bad as each other in terms of horrible behaviour towards each other as their relationship fell apart, based on what came out during the custody battle. It did not play well for SIL because it was seen as manipulation of the children and was used to show that she was not acting in their best interests. She was heavily criticised for this and a few other things, and judgement was heavily in favour of my brother in law- who is no saint, but did at least refrain from bad-mouthing or being critical of his children’s mother. It did also cause quite a lot of upset to their children too- they felt like they were being asked to pick one parent over the other (common in children of divorcing parents) by chosing whose behaviour was worst/which parent was at fault for their family breakdown. Don’t play that game with him, or more importantly, with your children. They don’t need to understand why you were unhappy or that he was a bad husband. In time, they will be able to reflect on their own experiences and come to their own conclusions.

At this point it would be better to say that although you love them very much, you just don’t love each other the way you need to, and living together was making you sad. Telling her dad was horrible to you (which you did, even if not in those exact words), made you sad and that she had seen it so she knew that what you were saying was obviously true was unwise at this stage. She then reflected your views back at you, which made you feel vindicated in telling her- she agreed with your views. She is probably being truthful, in that she observed this behaviour- but she is also trying to agree/show faith with you (e.g. her comment about not being either anyone who does things her dad did) and this is likely to make her feel conflicted about her dad, who she also loves. It’s really common for children to feel they have to agree/curry favour when one parent criticises the other- and she’ll do the same with your STBXH if/when he criticises you to her- and it’s really difficult for the, to process. Sometimes, they end up feeling the need to pick a side, which is awful too. So, I think this was unhelpful. He is already pulling at her emotions- he misses her, making it clear he does not want this etc. And now you have just done the same by explaining how awful daddy is and how it’s all his fault that you are splitting. Stop doing this, for her sake. It’s not letting him win, it really isn’t.

You do need to keep lines of communication open with him as relates to the children, and as you say you need to be careful not to withhold information from him from him regarding your children’s welfare because you fear it might might not play out in your favour in the future- you can’t control what he does or says, only what you do and say. Trying to anticipate what may or may not allow you more freedom, e.g. to move of you want, in the future is going to be hard to predict- my advice would be to do the right thing now and the rest will come out in the wash. If he is playing silly games, keep records and you can use that as evidence. Don’t try to second guess things though.

Good luck- please don’t read this as a character assassination, I do understand the desire to justify yourself and make them (or perhaps more your specifically your eldest) see your point of view, to defend yourself against what is unjustified criticism and behaviour- it’s entirely understandable and a normal response. But, I think it is doing your daughter a disservice right now, and may not serve you well in the longer term.

The situation with your daughter is heartbreaking. Kids are resilient. She will adjust, as all of you will. I admire your strength and your concern for your girl.

I've just read through all of your posts from the last thread and this one.

My first thought is, you need to stop giving your abusive husband additional ammunition. If you show him the post-it notes he will not respond by helping your daughter - he already knows that she is struggling and in reaction to this he sobs in front of her while blaming you. He will, however, use the post-it notes against you (as you know and say yourself).

My second thought is, you need to stop expecting your abusive husband to cease being abusive. He will in fact continue to ramp up the abuse. He has already demonstrated that he is quite happy to abuse your children, especially if in doing so he can also abuse you.

If anyone has been through similar with a particularly sensitive, emotionally aware child, I’d really appreciate any words of wisdom. Especially anything that helped them feel less responsible for the other parent’s happiness, or helped them begin to feel secure between two homes.

A couple of responses to this.

1. I don't have DC, partly I think because I saw my mother run ragged and emptied out by what was an increasingly difficult marriage. I watched this from about the age of 16 when my parents split temporarily (it was messy & horrible, in my A Level year - I became quite ill). It's not something a daughter should have to watch. My mother became nervous, martyred, and lacking in self-confidence. She didn't leave my father, even after his umpteenth infidelity (not always sexual, but always emotional), until I was 33. Growing up in that household has had lasting effects.

2. If your DD were this anxious & upset about anything other than your separation, how would you deal with her?

I wonder if your guilt - which is so strongly underlying everything you post - is stopping you dealing with her fears as you would normally?

At the same time I feel he needs to see these so he knows how important it is to be supporting her through.

When you've tried to reason with him before, with evidence, has he changed? Has he supported his DD in the way you think he should?

Er, no, he hasn't.

Just stop thinking he is going to behave as you want in this situation. You really do have to change your thinking about this.

Your ex will reap what he sows eventually as a father (I know mine has - we are kind to him, but that's about it).

I hope you instructed that shit hot lawyer OP! Let us know if you need recommendations.

Your ex is giving me the ick even from afar. No way back.

Agree with this 100% & with @TurtleMcTurtle re laying out your boundaries. You’ve been so strong but you need to make sure to stay strong.

Your DD will be better off in the long run - just keep focusing on that.

I do think his manipulative behaviour is worth documenting as he may well ramp up to parental alienation.

This may sound weird, but does your daughter like horses? 🐴 Horses can be great for mental health and developing resilience. Plus new friends, fresh air and hard work are all good for kids' mental wellbeing. You'll be in her good books if you take her riding.

I find talking too much about feelings actually amplifies them much more. Not sure therapy always makes things better as it just focuses on all the negative stuff.

@mamato3rascals do not show the notes to Ex. Remember also your DD will have learned to be dramatic like him, to a lesser degree. It’s good for
her to get it all out. She may feel very different in a few days and tear some of them up. I remember rowing with my Mum at a young age and I am not from a home where parents split - but I found a note I’d written and I can remember what happened and I laughed at my note (years later). Not minimising how she feels of course. Please don’t overthink - reassure as you are doing. And if Ex keeps telling you how great he was/is you can just say ‘sorry, that is not my recollection’. He is trying to convince himself. And do keep saying ‘she is afraid we won’t be there for her and so we need to reassure her that we will, that we both have her best interest at heart but we need to live apart’. Don’t give up now! This is all new, and in 3 months will be a lot more settled. Right now Ex is also only just realising it is real because he thought you’d give up.