PIL and weird boundaries - am I right being uncomfortable?

[detestedDIL]

Does all this ring alarm bells for you about boundaries?

Have been married to DH for 12 years, together for 20. PIL started out fairly friendly but distant, and have got progressively less welcoming, more excluding, and more aggressively unpleasant towards me. FIL is very arrogant, entitled and misogynistic in an old school tie/ bulldoggish kind of way. MIL is terribly grateful for the attention he bestows upon her, and is inclined to use him to enforce things where someone might (resonably) say no. FIL very aggressively enforces what MIL would like, talks over any objections and isn't above a bit of aggressive shouting to make sure he's won.

MIL tries to be way, way too close to my DH and individual grandkids. MIL has always had weird boundaries, being overly close with DH and frustrated/angry that her daughter (SIL) has kept her distance since her teens. She kisses DH and grandkids all on the lips (including my 50 year old DH, ugh), treats them like dolls dressing them up, feeds them by hand, is suffocatingly physically close. Always wants them on her lap, always has an arm around one or more of them. Always wants time with them alone, away from the gaze of other adults. Was incensed when DH started organising his own doctor and dentist visits as a 30 year old. Wanted to go in and change his pyjamas and give him a bed bath when he was 44 and had covid when we were staying at their house, and got really angry with me when I repeatedly suggested he could do that himself and she should really probably try not to catch covid. She then crowed about having done it anyway expressly against my wishes when I went out, saying that DH is her son and she'll do what she likes.

FIL aggressively enforces her "right" to such closeness, and has been aggressive towards me since DS9 was a baby because I've repeatedly stonewalled/ grey-rocked any suggestions that MIL should have time alone with DS, and have never held him in place so MIL could kiss him on the lips (in fact I've always made sure he's nowhere near her when this seems likely).

One of SIL's children (aged 13) is persona non grata because he's challenged MIL's boundaries and the rudeness of FIL's enforcing. MIL no longer kisses this child on the lips, nor seeks physical closeness with him, interestingly. He stays out of her way at family gatherings. The other GC (including the 17 year old) are still very much enmeshed with her, all over her like puppies, and she lights up when they're around.

DH has multi-year parts of his childhood that he has blanked out, where he can remember literally nothing. He is too frightened of his father's response to tell his mother not to kiss him on the lips. Over the years she's said things like "It's to show he's all mine" to me, after she's ostentatiously smooched him. DH finds it intrusive but is too afraid of his father to ever tell her to stop.

MIL and FIL are very aggressive towards me because I don't allow DS9 to have unsupervised time with them: they've recently banned me from their house. DS9 goes to visit them with DH for a couple of hours at a time, when we visit their city once or twice a year. I have told DH that it will be divorce proceedings the instant that he ever allows DS9 to go off with MIL unsupervised. DH agrees that the attitudes are strange, and so far has successfully enforced zero time for DS9 alone with MIL or FIL.

This all comes across as very unhealthy, right?

Generally I try not to dwell on it all too much, but I know that at some point they will be demanding that DS9 visit them alone, and I really don't want that to happen. I also know that DH is likely to be unable to stand up to his father if FIL decides to force the issue.

I don't think DH is a wet lettuce, I think he is someone who at the very least was controlled and had any boundaries violated and now has a distorted view of what is normal. He has been conditioned to obey and not question. I imagine the consequences of not doing so meant that his basic needs were ignored (silent treatment etc??) I would support his getting therapy and distance myself from these people who are trying to push you out so they can pull your son into this weird setup.

Never leave your child alone with her. I would openly challenge the inappropriate behaviour too.

This was my first thought too. Their behaviour is so demented that is suggests possibly darker things behind the scenes, esp coupled with your DH blanking out years of his childhood and SIL withdrawing contact. Your gut is also telling you that what is happening is wildly dysfunctional at best and extremely creepy at worst. Listen to that intuition, protect your DS at all costs.

These people are utterly, utterly repellent.

I’m afraid I completely agree with this analysis.
Sadly there is no way when left alone with his parents will OP’s DH be chaperoning DS correctly.

This is so creepy. Poor you! Nothing to add apart from asking if you’d feel ok with shouting back at the wretched father in law if he kicks off. I bet you’d be the first person to do so and the nasty plonker would be shocked into silence.

Your poor husband. Give him an extra big cuddle today. He grew up with this.

Fucking hell, what am I reading? Get your Son away from these people, and if your Husband can't stand up to them, get yourself and your Son the fuck away from him too.

Is the 13 year old grandchild who has withdrawn the SIL’s child, or the child of another sibling? If another sibling’s child, what is their interaction with their parents like?

Born in 1961 not done in our family either . Hugs yes lip kissing yuk no

OMG this sounds horrendous!!! Another vote for exploring the history a bit further with SIL if she is open to it. I smell deep-rooted trauma here for your poor DH…

I’m 64. Not at all normal

Delving too deeply into this may bring out whatever trauma your DH is suppressing, I wish you all the best with helping him through all this and hope your DS doesn't get caught in too much crossfire with the PIL.

Good luck x

None of you should have anything further to do with his abusive parents. Your DH is traumatised by his upbringing at their hands and needs therapy like yesterday frankly. He is also mired in fear obligation and guilt re them: three buttons they installed in him.

Would he be willing to speak to an organisation like NAPAC?. Or the BACP?. He will need to interview

You likely come from an emotionally healthy family where familial over familiarity, enmeshment and lack of boundaries common to many dysfunctional families is entirely unknown. Your h was not so lucky.

Your mistake here was to at all try and facilitate a relationship between these toxic people and your son. However, it’s likely you did not recognise it again because it’s unknown to you but now you know differently. You need to protect your child and your own family unit from these malign influences.

No I think it’s a ‘person ‘ thing.

I don’t want to be that person but I’d really worry about your husband repressing memories from childhood due to sexual abuse.

Why?

Why would you facilitate a relationship with such toxic adults and your vulnerable children when your MIL violates her adult son's physical boundaries and has incest issues going on? Her husband yells to enforce physical contact that violates personal physical boundaries.

Giving her mid 40s son a bed bath?
🤮

The amnesia is significant and telling. Look for a trauma informed therapist and see if your husband will go.

I'd give my husband one chance to move far, far away and if he didn't, I'd divorce and move far away myself. These people are toxic and incestuous. It would be much better for your kids to have no contact with your husband's family.

I feel bad for you and your husband. He's been very damaged but that doesn't mean he can serve up his kids to his family like he was.

Your husband was groomed. The same thing is likely happening with your son on his visits to the grandparents. Do you really believe your husband can tell them no when he can't stop his mom from being physically inappropriate with him in front of you, his wife?

If I were banned from someone’s house my 9 year old kid would not be going there either.

Utterly bizarre.

I would stop all visits for my child. They sound deranged.

Every word of this.

I'd be sorely tempted to tell them to fuck right off out of your life and that they will never see either you or their grandchildren ever again.

I'd also be sorely tempted to tell your DH that if he doesn't grow a pair and stand up to his revolting parents, then he can fuck right off too.

Yes, all of this.

Apart from the incredibly weird physical intrusions - has nobody picked up on the fact that DH's mother kicked off when he arranged his own doctor's/dental appointments... when he was THIRTY YEARS OLD??

Who the fuck has to inform their mother about their medical needs when they're 30? Creepy as hell for a grown adult man to have medical appointments only at his mother's say-so and even creepier that she kicked up a fuss when he put his foot down.

Honestly, the whole set up sounds like something from a weird psychological horror film.