PIL and weird boundaries - am I right being uncomfortable?

[detestedDIL]

Does all this ring alarm bells for you about boundaries?

Have been married to DH for 12 years, together for 20. PIL started out fairly friendly but distant, and have got progressively less welcoming, more excluding, and more aggressively unpleasant towards me. FIL is very arrogant, entitled and misogynistic in an old school tie/ bulldoggish kind of way. MIL is terribly grateful for the attention he bestows upon her, and is inclined to use him to enforce things where someone might (resonably) say no. FIL very aggressively enforces what MIL would like, talks over any objections and isn't above a bit of aggressive shouting to make sure he's won.

MIL tries to be way, way too close to my DH and individual grandkids. MIL has always had weird boundaries, being overly close with DH and frustrated/angry that her daughter (SIL) has kept her distance since her teens. She kisses DH and grandkids all on the lips (including my 50 year old DH, ugh), treats them like dolls dressing them up, feeds them by hand, is suffocatingly physically close. Always wants them on her lap, always has an arm around one or more of them. Always wants time with them alone, away from the gaze of other adults. Was incensed when DH started organising his own doctor and dentist visits as a 30 year old. Wanted to go in and change his pyjamas and give him a bed bath when he was 44 and had covid when we were staying at their house, and got really angry with me when I repeatedly suggested he could do that himself and she should really probably try not to catch covid. She then crowed about having done it anyway expressly against my wishes when I went out, saying that DH is her son and she'll do what she likes.

FIL aggressively enforces her "right" to such closeness, and has been aggressive towards me since DS9 was a baby because I've repeatedly stonewalled/ grey-rocked any suggestions that MIL should have time alone with DS, and have never held him in place so MIL could kiss him on the lips (in fact I've always made sure he's nowhere near her when this seems likely).

One of SIL's children (aged 13) is persona non grata because he's challenged MIL's boundaries and the rudeness of FIL's enforcing. MIL no longer kisses this child on the lips, nor seeks physical closeness with him, interestingly. He stays out of her way at family gatherings. The other GC (including the 17 year old) are still very much enmeshed with her, all over her like puppies, and she lights up when they're around.

DH has multi-year parts of his childhood that he has blanked out, where he can remember literally nothing. He is too frightened of his father's response to tell his mother not to kiss him on the lips. Over the years she's said things like "It's to show he's all mine" to me, after she's ostentatiously smooched him. DH finds it intrusive but is too afraid of his father to ever tell her to stop.

MIL and FIL are very aggressive towards me because I don't allow DS9 to have unsupervised time with them: they've recently banned me from their house. DS9 goes to visit them with DH for a couple of hours at a time, when we visit their city once or twice a year. I have told DH that it will be divorce proceedings the instant that he ever allows DS9 to go off with MIL unsupervised. DH agrees that the attitudes are strange, and so far has successfully enforced zero time for DS9 alone with MIL or FIL.

This all comes across as very unhealthy, right?

Generally I try not to dwell on it all too much, but I know that at some point they will be demanding that DS9 visit them alone, and I really don't want that to happen. I also know that DH is likely to be unable to stand up to his father if FIL decides to force the issue.

It's ridiculous that your DH won't tell his mother to stop kissing him on the lips because he's afraid of making his father angry. I wouldn't be letting my son go there without me knowing your husband is such a wet blanket because I wouldn't trust him to stand up for your DS when needed.

Exactly what the first poster said

I agree. The kissing turns my stomach. DH won't even talk about it though.

I feel like I need to keep DS9 further away from them generally. Difficult to do this - short of him not seeing them at all - if they refuse to see me except at family gatherings where someone else has invited me.

What's the concern with DS not seeing them? I'd be making it clear they only see DS with you as well, and if they choose not to see you then they don't see DS which feels like a win-win for you and DS.

This is disgusting and borderline incestuous and you need to go no contact. And your husband needs intense therapy to deal with his abusive parents.

@CypressGrove I'm inclined to agree, but I had been trying to be the adult here and facilitate a relationship between DS9 and his grandparents.

Creepy, inappropriate and intrusive behaviour from your PILs. Absolutely puke making.

I would stop letting your DS be taken there at all because DH is unable to stand up to his parents. He (DH) is in need of help himself, big time.

If I were in your shoes FIL could rage all he wanted to, and my child would still not be going there.

Does your DS even want to see them? I imagine he probably feels uncomfortable and violated. I'd still be stopping any contact at all though.

Well done to the 13 year old grandchild who has called them out on this.

I think you have to look at the reactions in the wider family here (distancing themselves) and stop any attempt at facilitating a relationship. Your DS needs these incestuous arses out of his life, not in it.

No! That’s horrid. I wouldn’t kiss my own children on the lips, never mind someone elses children. Keep your kids far away from her. Have a serious chat with your kids about boundaries and privacy around their bodies, including kissing. Tell them that their granny should not be doing this and that they ARE ALLOWED stop her.

your dh definitely needs therapy. He sounds traumatised.

stay strong

To be fair, it doesn’t sound like you need too much advice. You’ve stood up to them, ignored their tantrums, protected your DS and got DH onside. Just keep on doing what you’re doing.

But why do you think you need to facilitate a relationship between your child and people who are a) weird and b) abusive?

I did that for many years with my son and his grandmother - thinking it was the right thing to do. But eventually realised that she was incapable of having healthy relationships and my job was actually to protect him so I've ceased contact. She however is abusive. You need to decide if these ILs brings more positives or negatives to your son's live. Given your husband's hang-ups and inability to impose healthy boundaries I tend to think it's your role to protect not facilitate.

This all comes across as very unhealthy, right?

Just a TAD 😳

I don’t want to sound dramatic, but if your husband has blanked out a lot of his childhood and is terrified to assert boundaries with his parents then he needs therapy. It sounds like his childhood was extremely unconventional and perhaps some abuse happened.

I would go no contact, personally. But I can see why your husband would be scared to, or too afraid.

I would not let my children have alone time with them. Absolutely not.

What do you think about suggesting therapy to him?

If I was barred from someone’s house for having healthy boundaries my son would not be going there.
The bed bath is disturbing. Your husband’s fear says everything really. I really would be considering if it’s in your child’s best interests to be around these people. And I wouldn’t be sure your husband has tge ability to protect him.

I wouldn't let my DS visit without me.

This

All of this OP.

Of course it is better for children to have healthy relationships with GPs than no relationships but these people have incredibly unhealthy relationships and shouldn’t be anywhere near them without you there. I feel desperately sad for your DH. It must have done him all kinds of harm to grow up in this environment. Without therapy it may seem literally impossible for him to stand up to them. Read up about emotional incest. It’s not uncommon and often with mothers and sons.

Your DH might find it difficult if you stand up to his parents but you’re actually helping him too by showing him it’s possible to assert boundaries against them. He definitely needs therapy, ideally with someone who specialises in this area.

Out of interest what possible reason could they have given to ban you from their house and how did they communicate it? Because it’s so batshit I’m struggling to imagine how they defend their behaviour.

Yes this is most certainly a no contact situation at this point. I applaud the 13 year old who has found another successful way of handling the situation, but saying no is probably too difficult now for your DH (understandably so). He is a victim of abuse and I think you should to help and encourage him to stop physical contact with his parents. If phone calls/FaceTime mean he can maintain a semblance of a relationship without physical boundaries being crossed then that could be a compromise.

If your DH can’t even stop his mum kissing him on the lips then I would guess that despite what he might tell you, your DS probably does have time alone with grandparents when they visit.

How often do you all see them? Does your DH and DS even enjoy spending time with them. Can you just all scale it right back?

I agree with the poster who said that the bed bath is extremely disturbing. I have two adult sons and the thought of insisting and going behind their partners' backs to provide such intimate care to two grown men makes me shudder. It is inappropriate verging on incestuous in the true sense of the word.

They are not safe people for your son to be around. Your DH needs urgent therapy and you need to put your foot down and have the argument if he insists on continuing to take your son to visit his parents. If he agrees to let him go to their house on his own, I would seriously consider ending the marriage.

You are putting your child at real risk of abuse by letting him go to see them. You're not being the adult here at all!
They banned you because they knew you would not let them do what they please, but under pressure your DH might give in.
Stop the visits and help your DH by showing what a boundary looks like.
(Never forget the bed bath! That is so abnormal!!)

In a fairly similar situation I also tried to facilitate contact.

my kids are now grown up and have told me they didn’t like it and it was unpleasant spending time with their grandparents.

I’d be wary of making my mistake

I wouldn't trust your dh that he's able to keep your son safe on visits. If he can't defend himself, it's unlikely. He may cover up from you instead.

As pp have said, why facilitate the grandparent relationship when they are like this? They're not actually bringing your child anything good, it's just them visiting this dynamic on the next generation as well. What is your son gaining from contact?

How exactly did they "ban" you? What was the justification/wording?
Your DH is not capable of safeguarding DS. I would stop all contact between PIL and DS unless you are present.
Talk to DS about healthy boundaries and also his relationship with PIL specifically.
You have a huge DH problem.

I think DS9 having a couple of hours of contact a year with the grandparents is about right. I would not be ok with my child staying with them by themselves until I felt they were more than old enough to enforce all boundaries - and that means it can't be when they are physically staying with them/definitely they can't be in a different country by themselves as that leaves them exposed. What does your DS9 say about his grandparents? Has your DH considered counselling.

Why? Better no relationship than this very odd one. You are teaching your son that adults can do what they want and that his parents won't protect him. That's a dangerous game. He doesn't need a relationship with these people, it won't do him any harm.