PIL and weird boundaries - am I right being uncomfortable?

[detestedDIL]

Does all this ring alarm bells for you about boundaries?

Have been married to DH for 12 years, together for 20. PIL started out fairly friendly but distant, and have got progressively less welcoming, more excluding, and more aggressively unpleasant towards me. FIL is very arrogant, entitled and misogynistic in an old school tie/ bulldoggish kind of way. MIL is terribly grateful for the attention he bestows upon her, and is inclined to use him to enforce things where someone might (resonably) say no. FIL very aggressively enforces what MIL would like, talks over any objections and isn't above a bit of aggressive shouting to make sure he's won.

MIL tries to be way, way too close to my DH and individual grandkids. MIL has always had weird boundaries, being overly close with DH and frustrated/angry that her daughter (SIL) has kept her distance since her teens. She kisses DH and grandkids all on the lips (including my 50 year old DH, ugh), treats them like dolls dressing them up, feeds them by hand, is suffocatingly physically close. Always wants them on her lap, always has an arm around one or more of them. Always wants time with them alone, away from the gaze of other adults. Was incensed when DH started organising his own doctor and dentist visits as a 30 year old. Wanted to go in and change his pyjamas and give him a bed bath when he was 44 and had covid when we were staying at their house, and got really angry with me when I repeatedly suggested he could do that himself and she should really probably try not to catch covid. She then crowed about having done it anyway expressly against my wishes when I went out, saying that DH is her son and she'll do what she likes.

FIL aggressively enforces her "right" to such closeness, and has been aggressive towards me since DS9 was a baby because I've repeatedly stonewalled/ grey-rocked any suggestions that MIL should have time alone with DS, and have never held him in place so MIL could kiss him on the lips (in fact I've always made sure he's nowhere near her when this seems likely).

One of SIL's children (aged 13) is persona non grata because he's challenged MIL's boundaries and the rudeness of FIL's enforcing. MIL no longer kisses this child on the lips, nor seeks physical closeness with him, interestingly. He stays out of her way at family gatherings. The other GC (including the 17 year old) are still very much enmeshed with her, all over her like puppies, and she lights up when they're around.

DH has multi-year parts of his childhood that he has blanked out, where he can remember literally nothing. He is too frightened of his father's response to tell his mother not to kiss him on the lips. Over the years she's said things like "It's to show he's all mine" to me, after she's ostentatiously smooched him. DH finds it intrusive but is too afraid of his father to ever tell her to stop.

MIL and FIL are very aggressive towards me because I don't allow DS9 to have unsupervised time with them: they've recently banned me from their house. DS9 goes to visit them with DH for a couple of hours at a time, when we visit their city once or twice a year. I have told DH that it will be divorce proceedings the instant that he ever allows DS9 to go off with MIL unsupervised. DH agrees that the attitudes are strange, and so far has successfully enforced zero time for DS9 alone with MIL or FIL.

This all comes across as very unhealthy, right?

Generally I try not to dwell on it all too much, but I know that at some point they will be demanding that DS9 visit them alone, and I really don't want that to happen. I also know that DH is likely to be unable to stand up to his father if FIL decides to force the issue.

If DH has blanked out parts of his childhood that’s a red flag. I wouldn’t let my DC anywhere near these two. They sound certifiable.

Why though? They sound ghastly. Why do you want your son to have a relationship with them? If your DH can't cope with his relationship with them, why would you want that for your child?

Just a small point here. I am one of your older mumsnetters, born in the 60s. When I was growing up, everybody kissed each other on the lips, it wasn't anything untoward. If your MIL is around my age, she'll view it as perfectly normal.

What do the (non related) parents of the grandkids think? I can understand DH’s siblings might be accepting because they are likely to have normalised the wierd behaviour, but what about their partners. Surely anyone who didn’t grow up in this oddness would be weirded out by it? Just wondering whether there is a way to band together and help the adult children/ grandchildren collectively as well as doing what you’re doing?

Thanks all. Yes, I think we need both therapy and extremely limited contact with grandparents, and any contact is going to be fully supervised by me from now on. We only see them once or twice a year for a week or so at a time - so in total about 10 times a year or less. Other than that it's Zoom calls once a week.

On me being banned from their house: last time they visited us they were very "angry" (i.e. manufacturedly so) about the fact I was not giving them enough time with DS. They felt this was entirely down to my choices (and had nothing to do with any behaviour from them at all, or the fact they'd decided to be here at a time when he was busy with school and extracurriculars). So they refused to speak to me, and told DH they no longer expected me to stay at their house. I said, fine, I'd stay elsewhere with DS and DH. They then demanded that all visits to their place be done without me present, on the next trip to visit them. As DH was on board with the zero time spent alone with grandparents, I let it happen.

However, I agree with people here, and it's not going to happen again. Future visits will involve trips to neutral places and I will be present, and my presence won't be up for discussion. Will be interesting to see how they respond when I turn up.

DS9 recognises that FIL is very rude, but follows DH in always listening politely. He veers between understanding that MIL's boundaries are a bit weird and enjoying her enthusiasm for relating to him. Lowering hte frequency of contact should help a bit there.

I don’t think this is the norm for over 60s at all.

We certainly didn't. No kissing on the lips from parents, grandparents, aunts or anyone else. Only ever saw one family do this through my childhood and everyone else found it odd enough to remark on it.

Your 60s were not everyone's 60s.

@RichPetuniaAgain MIL certainly seems to think it's normal, but honestly she's the only person I've ever met who does, other than some of the extremely weird Catholic priests who kiss everyone on the lips. And she, my parents, all their friends were all born in the 30s-40s, and none of my grandparental generation (born in the 00s-10s-20s) did it either.

If my DH was allowing his DM to kiss him on the lips, dress him in his pyjamas etc. it would give me the ick....how creepy, why does he allow this. How gross (of him to allow it!)

I'm also astounded that the even though you have been banned from their house your DH still happily will visit with your DS (thus enforcing their opinion that you are the problem) your DH should have laid the boundary down 'if my DW is not invited then we won't be coming, we are a package deal and she is my family'

You have a DH problem OP, he doesn't stand up for you and his DS.

Similar age. No lip kissing happened here 🥺🙄😳

Your wet blanket of a husband can do whatever he wants and he'll need counseĺling to deal with whatever horrors his parents put him through but for goodness sake safeguard your child!

Asides from the emotional abuse/weirdness can you be sure there isn't any sexual abuse from MIL? (It'd less common but women absolutely can perpetrate) Or can you be sure that her inappropriate affection isn't a way of grooming them so FIL can swoop in and abuse them? The kissing on the lips, the controlling pig of a man, the wanting 'alone time' with the kids, the son that's endured such trauma that he's blanked out parts of his childhood, the child and grandchild who've distanced themselves, them isolating you so that you have less control over the situation... these are such cliche red flags that they almost feel like a netflix crime drama.

Your child isn't going to spontaneously combust even if he never has any contact with these weirdos again. Put your foot down and protect him! Contact in a neutral location only and you won't be taking your eyes off him. If they question why then tell them bluntly that their behaviour is off the charts bizarre and reads like every family crime story ever told.

As a much, much older mumsnetter, born in the 40s, I agree!

Weird, extremely weird, what a nightmare for you to have to deal with. I found my late daughter in law, one of the most difficult relationships I’ve ever had with anyone. Because l was the polar opposite of what she was used to, we don’t as a wider family go for shopping or drinking sessions into the city, hers went out regularly and up to 30 people. I don’t meddle in everyone’s business and private lives and I’m not messaging daily for updates into their lives. Apparently l was uncaring but the first port of call when money was needed, her family all were either on benefits or in low paid jobs, with zero ambition to drag themselves out of their hole.

So you think your son should have a relationship with his grandparents who are all sorts of weird at any cost? I’d cut contact immediately with both of them. I’m revolted just reading this.

It very much was growing up for me and my friends. I'm 57. However, I fully supported my DS when he obviously didn't want to kiss or be kissed from a very young age.
My DM was offended, but I stood my ground and so did he.

My parents, aunts and uncles all born in the 60’s and don’t kiss anyone on the lips, only their spouses.

My grandparents are still alive, born in the 40’s and they don’t kiss other people on the lips either.

It is not and never has been normal 🤢🤢🤢

I was born In the 60’s and this was not normal practise in my family then or now. I don’t recall seeing it in anybody else’s family either.

Is your Husband called Norman, and Mother in Law called Norma?

i have a lovely photo of me and my ds aged about 2 having a kiss on the lips
my own dm did not like the photo

i cant believe they have banned you from the house op, i would insist on going when ds goes

@gratefulmezze to be fair, I have no idea if she actually did do that bed bath or was just trying to freak me out with it once she'd realised I found the idea repellent. DH had raging covid, as did I, though I was trying to take 3yo DS to the park to keep him out of everyone's way. i was blacking out and practically hallucinating so I had other things to think about at the time, and DH claims to remember nothing, just the feeling of clean pyjamas (which, if he felt like I did, would be plausible). But i've never forgotten the way she got angry about it and then was all smug afterwards.

Very similar to my PILs. You sound like me when we had our first child and MIL’s unhealthy attitude to DH was facilitated by my bullly of a FIL. We tried to enforce healthy boundaries but this enraged them.

I think the relationship here is more about control than love. If they lose the control I wouldn’t be surprised if you end up no contact as we did. Although it was a shock at the time as we genuinely wanted to work things out, it was the best thing. I’ve learned that you can’t negotiate with narcissistic bullies. Your DH should speak to someone in a professional capacity asap to help him gain perspective and offer support.

@HoraceCope It's a bit different with a 2 year old. We're talking 50 year old DH and grandkids aged 17, 13 (until recently, anyway) and 11

Surely you being banned from visiting should be the point where Dh says that his wife is his family and therefore no wife, no visit?

Yes, I agree with PP, where’s your husbands solidarity? If I was banned from anything I’d expect my husband to support me and put his foot down.

I come from a really ‘huggy’ family. We all hug hello and goodbye, always give a kiss. BUT the cheek! Not the lips! That’s weird.