Do all men cheat / watch porn?

[pickalillyspooon]

Tale as old as time. I’ve seen this debate played out before.

But I’m in a situation, it’s hard to tell people in real life.

we are early 40s, married 13 years, three primary aged kids. Parenthood hit us like a ton of bricks. Child number 1 didn’t sleep. We were exhausted, I felt resentful about lack of support (in hindsight he did do a lot, there wasn’t really much more he could have done). We just didn’t get on and there was no sex. We had always wanted a sibling for DD
so had sex once and this miraculously resulted in a twin pregnancy.

So, by the time our eldest was 6 and twins were 3 we had had sex once. So once in 6 years. I know now how bad that was.

At the time I was struggling with postnatal depression, 3 non sleeping kids, and working shifts in a demanding job. We barely shared a bed, we just slept wherever. And we had no family to ever babysit.

DH eventually addressed it, asked if we could go to councelling. I shut this down as I felt I just needed more support and maybe then I’d have the energy for that. I felt like he was just one more person making demands on his time.

He then shouted that it was fuckn shit (true) and I kind of realised it couldn’t go on like that.

So we had sex. And it was fine. And it became easy to just continue to have sex. So that’s what we did. All good. We were back in the saddle.

I found out a few months later this the prompting from DH was due to him confiding in an ex girlfriend about our lack of sex life. Not somebody he sees as she lives abroad, but they have kept in very sporadic contact over the years. She told him to speak to me. Also apparently recounted some of their raunchy moments from their past and told him to recreate them.

I found out about this as hears him listening to a voice note from her (didn’t hear the content). He denied denied denied at first, then told me this is what is was. Said it was her that suggested councelling etc.

I was not happy. Asked if they had been sending nudes etc. he swore not.

Life was fine for a couple of years when I snooped and found some messages / photos. They had sent nudes. And worst off all, had planned to meet up for sex. She would catch a flight to our city and book a hotel. I saw the dates she had proposed, and checked back my WhatsApp / photos and he was here. I then found what I think was the final agreed date. I queried why he was doing his hobby on this date when I had an important event the following week, and he said “ok, no bother, I’ll cancel it.”

He was here on that date, so I know it didn’t go ahead.

He says he never had any intention of going through with it. He said when it started it was a bit of excitement and we hadn’t been intimate in so long he just enjoyed the attention. He is quite a shy person and he said that because it was through a phone screen it didn’t seem “real” and he would be too much of a shitebag to go through with anything like that in real life.

Contact between them just dwindled apparently and that does seem to be the case from what I can see from his phone.

She has now been blocked and deleted.

This has all absolutely broken me.

On seeing his phone I can see he looks at some porn as well. Nothing extreme, doesn’t seem excessive use. I don’t particularly like it but I can’t get on my high horse about that. I watch porn myself occasionally and I understand that it’s a real disconnect to real life - some of the stuff I watch I would have absolutely no interest in in real life.

But the ex gf situation.

He swears it was just messages and he never met her and had no intention of doing so. I know how lonely he must have been during that time because I was too. And I enjoyed when men from my past would comment on my fb or whatever, because it was nice to get a little bit of attention. But that’s as far as that went. This girl was obviously a step further than that.

There was never any intention to leave me and be with her. She is married but in an open marriage. And in another country and seemingly very happy. Just enjoys shagging other people’s husbands.

I feel sick at the seediness of it all the complete disrespect that of the 4 people involved, I was the only one with no idea what was going on. Like it just didn’t concern me.

i’m struggling to forgive or forget and not sure how of if I’ll get over it.

But the thought of splitting my family up over messages is hard to take.

He is a good dad, a hard worker, we get on well, and our sex life is back on track and very good.

The thought of being single doesn’t appeal. There’s hardly any decent guys out there and I wouldn’t bring a new man into my kids lives anyway. Financially I would struggle and have to move areas to a flat in a different school catchment.

But the thought of living my life constantly wondering if it’s happening again is not good. And just the images of the photos and texts I’ve seen.

it just seems so, so stupid to have thrown away a life and a family over this.

Thank you for the support @Mischance.

I know what you are saying is correct.

I think you both neglected your marraige to a very severe extent. You just did it in different ways.

Both of you dealt with it badly and both approaches were wrong, they are understandable.

You were dealing with PND so shut off and he reached out to ex when things were at a really bad point.

You had little to no sex in 6 entire years. That's going to cause feeling of rejection, hurt and isolation on both sides.

It's also very clear than neither of you wants to leave. So don't.

Cop yourselves on. Agree to draw a line under it. Accept you both could & should have done a lot of things differently. Both of you need to stop raising past issues in arguments.

Decide that you want to be together. Work on your marraige, intimacy and oallocating time for you as a couple rather than two stressed out parents. Counselling if needed.

Start marraige 2.0 with the best of intentions and see if you both can make it work.

It's worth a try and if it doesn't work, then you need to go your seperate ways.

I think affairs are a lot more common than we like to believe. In long term marriages, it really isn’t unusual. And men are apparently most likely to have affairs or explore cheating after the birth of a child.
Naturally people want affection, attraction and intimacy. It’s very difficult for us to fulfil everything our partner needs over years and years but we still have this expectation of complete monogamy.
I am not saying that what he did is ok, or fair to you, because it isn’t. But breaking up a family is a tough decision and there are no winners.

I think you’re right.

It’s easy for people say he cheated (even if not physically) and I’m a mug for putting up with it.

equally it’s easy to say no way should he have put up with no sex for 6 years and should have left long ago (or cheated, although I think most people would say leave, rather than cheat).

Ultimately, I think my life would be worse without him.

The sad thing is that this has just tainted it all so much. I just feel so sad and jealous all the time. And that’s on me to deal with.

Why are you jealous? There's zero reason to be jealous of her. She was the only easy option at the time.

Think of it like a bad car crash. You need to repair the car. Eliminate anything that caused it - speed, lack of attention etc. Regain confidence. You wouldn't just never drive again!

You and your DH need to have an honest conversation on whether or not you want to try save your marraige and if you do, agree what does that look like to you both.

1. Boundaries
2. Intimacy
3. Trust
4. Expectations
5. Couple time (specific time for just the two of you - babysitter or when kids are in bed.
6. Counselling?

Honestly, it sounds like you need to start dating again and see if you both can make it work.

Porn- probably; cheating - nah

@WallaceinAnderland "He hasn't even begun to understand what he's done because fundamentally he doesn't care."

Do you think it's possible that, rather than not caring, he can't face what he's done?

I think it comes down to the whole men need sex to feel loved, women need to feel loved to have sex?

This is Mills & Boon nonsense. Although I can’t speak for men, I know women can have sex without loving or feeling loved.

Fair enough, it’s maybe a slightly cliched, clumsy shortcut to get my point across. But the main premise actually holds true, for me.

I’m way more receptive to having sex if my needs have been met and some thought has gone into doing something to make me happy. Whereas most men, in my experience, are fine to bash on regardless.

I know you feel the relationship has been tainted but behind closed doors no relationship is perfect and the dream relationship does not really exist.
You have weathered a storm and need to turn your faces to the future .... but only if you really feel you can do that.

If it was years ago and things are otherwise good between you then I wouldn't throw away the relationship over this. Put a bit of the fear of god in him that if he does anything like this again then he is in for a nasty divorce and then move on.

@WallaceinAnderlandI’m not sure you’re correct with that.

Im pretty sure he does care. He’s not a “bad” person. He’s just done a really stupid, hurtful thing.

He has cried so much he had a panic attack (I woud roll my eyes if I read this on a post, I don’t blame you. But I know him and it was genuine. Never had one before and he was terrified, we both were).

Anyway, he says he knows how much he has hurt me and that he is so sorry.

He then says (and this is where I don’t know if he’s telling the truth and it’s a good thing, or if he’s minimising and gaslighting…)

He says that he knows he’s hurt me and he’s sorry BUT - it was just messages. He didn’t ever expect anything to come of it, he liked the attention, the fact that she was nice to him (I wasn’t, I admit this). I said it was regular contact over a long time. He said it was semi-regular, over a short period of time. That he didn’t think much of it other than it was really exciting and enjoying the attention. Because she did not live in this country it didn’t seem “real” and it felt like a bit of a release because he is otherwise quite shy in general and fairly sexually inhibited.
From what he said, and from what I can see, the messages started around late February 2022 until July 2022 then briefly again in September 2022, then fizzled out.

Thank you. You give good advice, and raise a good point. And yes, she very much was the one pursuing him. Jealous because she is incredibly confident and has a very slim, gym toned body. Bad boob job though and doesn’t have a good face.

But I guess mainly jealous and angry that she’s wormed her way into my marriage. I feel like she’s stolen something from me. I feel like she probably thinks she could have my husband if she wanted him.

Husband desperately wants to stay together, says he will do anything. But he would never ever leave our kids, he is devoted to them, so I think he would stay even if he didn’t like me (we hated each other in those sleep deprived early years, but he would just never have left). But our sex life is back on track and is very good, we get on well, so I don’t think it’s the case that he’s just staying for the kids.

He has asked for us to go to councelling, just because he will do anything to fix it. I’m not totally opposed to it but finding the time (and money) wouldnt be easy, and I’m not sure what good it would really do. I don’t have enough experience of it .

As regards boundaries, I would hope these are now fairly obvious, he knows what he did was wrong, but maybe I will need to spell all this out to him.

Thank you @NotDavidTennantand @Mischance. I really appreciate your advice.

I agree it’s very difficult to throw away a marriage, particularly over something as flimsy as this.

For a while I was obsessed with finding evidence that they did go ahead with the proposed meet up and have sex. If that was the case, I don’t think I could get over that. That would be game over.

I don’t have access to everything but I have access to some things (that he doesn’t know about). I’ve looked and looked and I can’t find any evidence. Anytime he has been away overnight I’ve known for sure where he was etc and he was in constant contact. I know he could have taken a day off work and met her but I can’t find any evidence of this either.

So I think I need to just get over it and move on.

I dont feel like I’m “just staying for the kids”. Other than this mess, we are a good team. He is good company, he’s dependable, the sex is good and comfortable.

There’s no denying it is tainted now though. But ultimately I would not happy without him.

Obviously there is a line though. If this happened again, it would have to be the end.

My last post on this as I don't want to hog your thread.

She's so irrelevant to the entire thing and you are giving her too much head space and room in your marraige. She was just there at a time when your marraige was at rock bottom. There's nothing special about her - any other woman who gave your husband attention at that time would also have served the same purpose. Decide right now, she's no longer having any part or control in what happens from here on in!

I think you need to get out of your own way!

If you want to save your marraige, you really have to go forward instead of constantly looking backwards!

If you can't seem to get 1, day 1, park it all in the past and approach it with a new beginning then you absolutely need counselling to get there, if that's what you want.

OP what he did is shit . yes , but from what I’ve read you guys were in a bad place at the time .
I think the fact that you got through it & came out the other side , happy to be in one another’s company, sex life back on track .
The kids are getting older , life is settling again .
I’m not excusing what he did , at the end of the day he never met her though , he couldn’t bring himself to do it to you .
If it was me that’s what i would be focusing on .That he couldn’t bring himself to have sex with another woman.
Of course he shouldn’t have been sending nudes or talking about sex with another woman, but it was talk & pics & no real life intimacy.
Also it happened a few years ago , he stopped engaging with her ever before you discovered it .
I just think from what I’ve read your marriage can survive this, but you have to be able to leave it go .
These things take time x

I would usually say that cheating is a dealbreaker but… honestly, your marriage sounds like it was utterly terrible for years and I can see how your husband ended up doing what he did. Is it OK? No. Is it understandable? Yes.

I think most people - male or female - in a situation with a depressed partner who didn’t accept that counselling was an option, two small kids, and no sexual relationship for six years (except for one occasion solely to produce a sibling for the first child) would either leave (which he obviously didn’t want to do) or end up looking for some form of closeness/affection/gratification elsewhere simply to maintain some sanity. Maybe it could be argued that he should have simply left but presumably he didn’t want to give up on your marriage any more than you did. I also think it’s pretty telling that he didn’t actually go through with meeting up with her at all. This is probably one of the only cheating scenarios I’ve seen on Mumsnet where I’ve thought “I reckon I could draw a line under that” rather than “I would end the relationship immediately”.

If you want to stay married but can’t stop fixating on the messages he exchanged with his ex, then honestly, I think now is the time to have the counselling you refused previously.

I think @AwfullyGoodhas it spot-on about the woman he was messaging. She honestly could have been anyone. She was an outlet, that’s all.

Have you heard the saying "The past is a foreign country"? Well, for him it's the past and like that time where he once went to Berlin on a school trip. But for you, it's all relatively recent and as close as your local park that you might see every couple of days or so. It's two different realities.

Thing is, over time, it'll become your past too. That local park will be something you don't even register on your way to work. It won't matter. It'll just be a dim memory. You're probably never really going to let it go, instead it'll become irrelevant. And one day, you'll catch yourself in the kitchen, wondering why you ever cared about the woman with the fake tits and ugly face. You got the twins. She got measured up for a Y-shaped coffin.

there are two issues here, the potential cheating, and the porn. I’ll address the most important first.

Cheating

Cheating is obviously dishonest and extremely hurtful - however you were not blindsided by this and you put DH in an impossible decision where he could only:

(1) live in shame and frustration as his best and most sexually active years disappear

(2) betray the trust of his wife, with whom he had tried to fix things.

The correct response here would be to acknowledge your different sex drives and allow harmless outlets. This may be porn, it may be “trying things in the bedroom” such as various kinks (many kinks are situational and not gross, contrary to popular belief. E.g. a bit of bum slapping etc).

you absolutely cannot back someone, male or female, into a corner and demand they suppress their natural (and very healthy) desire for physical and emotional intimacy.

if push comes to shove, you could even try (as we did) going to ‘sex positive clubs’ which are places where you can one or both of you can cop off in a nightclub setting with eachother or with someone else (I.e. it’s not cheating because you’re both present and part of the sexy vibe).

Porn

While watching porn is not particularly pleasant, it is absolutely not cheating.

I have always found this attitude that pornography is cheating completely bizarre. If he was flogging the dolphin while imagining a woman rather than watching a woman would that be cheating? Surely you are not so naive/prudish that you think a married man (or indeed anyone!) shouldn’t masturbate?

Next steps

You need to acknowledge that a relationship is two people consistently working to fulfil the others needs and desires.

Over time a relationship creates obligation and bonds of loyalty, but the moment you stop seeking to fulfil eachother, the relationship is on a timer.

Your only options are as follows:

(1) find it within yourself to meet your DHs desire for intimacy

(2) if the above is not possible, then you need to allow harmless outlets for his sexuality.

(3) accept the relationship is not fulfilling your husband, and that he may leave. If he does leave, or you do, do what you can to make this painless for everyone.

Option 3 is obviously horrible, and to be avoided. Hence I recommend option 1 or 2.

Very good point, thank you!!

And yes, you’re right. It’s all so fresh in my mind and I quiz him on it and he doesn’t remember a lot of it as it was so long ago.

(I know he doesn’t remember as opposed to lying because he said “I really don’t remember but I suppose it must have been such and such”. I’ve then dug about a bit more and actually it turned out to be something totally innocent. Which he’d have said if he he’d remembered.)

Thanks @CheesyPyou raise some really great points.

of course you’re right about denying someone a sex life. Those years were miserable for us both. I didn’t want sex so wasn’t sexually frustrated. He was obviously incredibly so.

I can therefore understand why he responded when she approached him. I get that. But this obviously gave him the confidence to tell me that things had to change. So he did, I realised we was right, and we started having sex again. What hurts me is that he didn’t then immediately stop the communication with her. He was having sex with me whilst also sexting her, sending and receiving nudes.

you may not have read all my posts, but our sex life is good now. Has been back on track for a few years now and very much making up for lost time.

As regards porn, my only issue with it is jealousy, pure and simple. I am a naturally jealous person and not the most body confident, particularly since having kids.

it is very much secondary to the cheating. But I just hate the thought of him getting so turned on by other naked women. But that’s just life, I know it’s a me problem.

Thank you @BauhausOfEliott

Yes, I need to get over it.

I wonder if councelling would help. This is very “me”. I do tend to hyper focus on things and ruminate on them 24/7 for months and months. Until I do (usually) finally let them go.

It is bad though, I can’t just brush it under the table by saying “oh I’m overreacting as usual”. It was really traumatic seeing those photos and messages. I distinctly remember my whole body felt like it had turned to ice and my fingers were no numb I could barely move them.

Sorry yes I only read the initial post.

Really glad sex life has improved for both of you - fab news.

re: porn. While I don’t think it’s cheating, it is still quite unhealthy. If he is watching porn then it might be worth a discussion about something he’d like to do with you in the bedroom that meets that need. Porn usage is a fact of life, but if it’s a really regular thing it can indicate a problem.

re: feelings of jealousy. Totally get that. My advice is… make him jealous right back! Mention men who you think are gorgeous ;)

my DP and I point out to eachother when the other gets eyeballed by fitties. Makes us both feel great! We are more liberal than most though.

@pickalillyspooon "It was really traumatic seeing those photos and messages. I distinctly remember my whole body felt like it had turned to ice and my fingers were so numb I could barely move them."

My wife had an affair and I found out (the second time) when the other man's wife sent printouts of their emails, which she'd intercepted, to my place of work. I sat at work reading them, shaking. Yes, "traumatic" is the word. I started individual therapy last year and am resuming very soon.

That horrible event was almost 16 years ago and I wish I'd confronted it earlier - but better late than never, I suppose.

I’ve been in a similar position OP, but I was the one texting my ex. (Can never be 100% sure DH wasn’t up to similar). It was an escapism and fantasy to escape what was a real shitty time. Someone who knew me before kids and absolutely flattered me.
Come to think of it, I don’t think I would have genuinely gone through with meeting up but it was a nice thought that someone wanted me and gave me the attention I craved.
Eventually it fizzled out and we haven’t been in touch for years now. I think if that door is open initially it’s very easy - my ex would often text some kind of compliment or something nice which would open the conversation. It sounds like your DH and ex also had that door open. It wouldn’t ever cross my mind to do this now, or with anyone else.
My DH never did find out though. Our relationship got back on track and it has never been a thought that I would be likely to ‘cheat’ again. Unlike your relationship I know it would be an absolute deal breaker for DH if he ever found out, even if 15 years had passed - but I guess that’s the difference between men and women. Women do put up with more.
IMO, it was not a big deal, it was a fantasy, I’ve never felt guilty about it. Looking back now i am abit ick-y about it from my side but that’s about it.