Dealing with increasingly extreme political views in a good friend

[RandomNameChangeAlgorithm]

I think its a hand-hold needed more than actual advice.

I have a friend who I've known for 30 years and who I've been through a lot of my life with. At her best, she's a wonderful friend. She can be entertaining and good fun, very intelligent and very supportive. She's been with me through most of the most significant parts of my life.

Increasingly her political views are become pretty extreme (on the right). Having been someone who described herself as a "left winger" and "progressive" for most of our friendship, she has now pivoted in the space of about two years to being someone who is "open to hearing from" Tommy Robinson, believes that Muslims in the UK are a threat to our safety, goes on ad nauseam about the grooming gangs etc. Believes the current government is antisemitic. Has very extreme views on gay people: she's gone from a position of being anti-trans (which I don't agree with but is more understandable) to basically saying all gay people have been brainwashed by the left. Everything, and I mean everything, is "woke".

To be really clear: I don't agree with any of these positions and I find some of them abhorrent but I acknowledge her right to hold these views. I'm pretty much a centrist, politically, slightly left of centre but not an extreme leftist (I was always politically to the right of her). But I'm very relaxed about being friends with people from different backgrounds and discussing different viewpoints, I just can't stomach having to endlessly debate this stuff. It's impossible to talk about anything else and I find it exhausting and just want to talk about normal things once in a while.

I've previously said to her that she and I will never agree on, for example, the need to expel Muslims from the UK, I respect that its her right to hold these views but I find them abhorrent and upsetting and can we just agree not to talk about this subject as I find it difficult. But she won't accept this and will always bring every discussion around to this, without fail. I can't spend more than about ten minutes in her company or on the phone talking about anything neutral without a rant about Muslims or gays or the "woke media". It's as if its some sort of compulsion, an attention seeking thing to bring everything back to her political position.

I suppose I've got to a point where I find this so toxic and exhausting I can't deal with it any more and have been avoiding spending time with her and I feel guilty. I've been wrestling with whether to tell her directly why I can't handle it or just let the friendship drift. She's lost touch with a lot of our mutual friends from the past recently because people can't deal with the politics: old friends have basically ghosted her and I know she is sad and confused about this. I sort of feel she is owed an explanation, we've known one another for so long, but I also can't face getting into a long debate about why I've been brainwashed by the woke media etc etc. I don't have the mental bandwidth for it.

Do I owe this to her? Or should I just accept that the friendship is over.

I have a very dear friend of 35 years who has been through a huge amount and is now very anxious and has completely fallen for the hard right rhetoric. For years I felt obliged to reason with her and she obviously enjoyed these pointless debates so now, before we meet, I ban politics. It doesn’t stop her raising it but it stops me feeling obliged to join in. I just say that I don’t want to discuss this and we move on. It isn’t ideal but it enables us to remain friends.

Absolutely this. Force her to make a choice – it’s important for her sake that she understands that the relationship will be fine if it’s conducted normally, but cannot continue if it’s to be a single-issue friendship chosen by one party.

But be sure to make clear that the problem is ‘too much politics’, not ‘too much right wing politics’ or ‘too many hateful views’ – if you cast the problem in that light she will think you’re distancing yourself because you disagree with her politically. Then even if the relationship survives a political argument will only ever be one step away.

I don’t know whether the word ‘boring’ would help or not? Some people will take offence at hearing they’ve become boring; but for others it will be exactly the jolt they need to drive them to become normal again.

Personally I tend to think we should call politics-lovers boring as much as possible, and to their faces, because this fad cannot die quickly enough and it would be lovely if pushing unsolicited political views became social death. But, erm, maybe best to use your own judgement on that one!

the left, paradoxically, don’t have to be tolerant of intolerance, because then intolerance is tolerated and intolerance doesn’t exist, and that’s where the slippery slope begins.

Everybody I know or have come across who is a reform supporter is deeply insecure, cannot regulate their emotions, and is punching down. Farage is a disgraceful conman and it’s right in front of their faces and obvious to anyone who gives anything he says more than a passing thought, but they couldn’t give a flying fuck even if they could see it because he’s promising to harm those they hate. They will only care when it’s too late and they’re next in line.

Even if they also get harmed in the process, it’s worth it just to punish those they see as ‘less than’ them and it makes them feel powerful when they are otherwise powerless. Nobody who is truly content in their life holds those types of beliefs.

They are being manipulated by billionaire conmen and Russian oligarchs with endless money to push the agenda and weaken the West under the guise of saving us from a supposed threat that Farage and Putin have helped cause. Same thing is happening in the USA with the MAGA movement and Christian nationalists.

Stoking up fear, anger and hate is the sure fire way to make people so desperate they don’t care about anything else but ‘’woke’’ and immigration. It’s clear how this has happened, we had all the uncertainties of Covid and the conspiracy theories that were peddled then. It’s all the same people that fell for them that have fallen for the cult of Reform. They’ve had that priming effect, so when reform come along spewing their bullshit, people are like putty in their hands. This is the same sort of thing.

You will have to cut your friend off, she needs to come to her senses on her own. It’s so exhausting, they never shut up because they want to feel intelligent and if they can convert someone to their way of thinking, it validates it further.

See this is what I’m talking about.

Just quoting all of this because it feels you’ve opened the windows in here.

Is she ok? Is going through something as where is this all coming from?

@Teanbiscuits33 couldn’t agree more - I would have less of an issue with discussing the concerns of a right wing viewpoint if it wasn’t for the fact so many are fooled by a guy you wouldn’t buy a second hand car from who cannot even be arsed to serve his own constituency , explain his own Russia connections and clearly is so far up Trumps backside that he’s touching his tonsils.-

some posters have got sidetracked breaking down which of her views may or may not be correct (in their opinion) and why....but to be honest it seems irrelevant. Her behaviour would be as annoying and rude if she were far left rather than far right.

To be honest it would be boring and not someone I'd want to continue being friends with if she turned every topic and dismissed any dissenting views on topics that were completely non-political - if she'd started clean eating and literally wouldn't talk about anything else and lectured you for not following the same diet, or had recently had a child and bored on about the best way to raise them while judging your parenting.

The actual views are almost irrelevant, particularly when you sound like a very open minded, laid back person who is up for conversations about potentially contradictory topics - just not all the time, which is what she wants. The relevant part is that she no longer seems to have anything in common with you that she is willing to talk about, and also doesn't seem like a very pleasant or fun to be person, not necessarily because of her views (although I don't agree with them) but because the way she insists on constantly expressing them regardless of whether they are appropriate, interesting or potentially offensive/upsetting to her audience. So of course it makes sense to no longer want to be friends with her.

I wouldn't make any big dramatic declaration but would start to just fade her out and go a few months without seeing her. It's likely that by itself will tell you how you feel - whether you start missing her or if you feel a sense of relief. If she asks why, as it seems she might, then I'd tell her - focussing less on her opinions because she'll probably just use that to justify yakking at you more to try and get you to understand her POV but more on her behaviours

"You only ever talk about x, y, and z, even when I've told you I don't want to discuss them. We never talk about any of the fun things we used to chat about - our families, the fun we got up to in the past, books we've read (replace as appropriate depending on your shared interests). X, Y, and Z have happened to me recently but you don't have a clue because you never let me get a word in edgeways. I don't see the point in meeting up anymore because I don't get any enjoyment out of it and rather than it making us closer I leave every time feeling we've grown further apart. There's nothing wrong with talking about politics and current events if they come up organically as part of a conversation, but it seems like you're only interesting in conversion to your point of view rather than conversation. I want to meet up with my friend and chat about our lives - if I wanted a one-sided political rant I can read a newspaper.'

Hi OP, this is such an interesting thread and I have really enjoyed your thoughtful posts.

Long friendships are truly irreplaceable, and I hope that you can find a way to be open and direct with your friend about how this situation makes you feel. Please don't ghost her or end the friendship. There is definitely common ground to be found, even if it is an agree-to-disagree/let's-not-discuss kind of a place you arrive at.

I feel for your friend (and in many ways I am her!), as it is a difficult, frustrating and lonely experience to have your political and social views shift in this way, especially when you discover that your close friends disagree and even disapprove.

Are you interested in gender identity ideology and immigration as issues yourself? They are both hot topics right now and important too, so in many ways worth engaging with. Could you suggest to your friend that you actually set some time aside to talk through them? She can explain her points of view to you and you can ask questions and challenge her as well as share your own point of view. See where you get to. There is a chance that sincere and open engagement and interest from you will be enough, and the issues will fall off the agenda for her.

Yes, I agree. I’d do it next time she starts.

I’d interrupt firmly and say, ‘look, xx, you know I don’t share that view and surely you realise this is why (other friends) have pulled back? You can hold those views, but you can’t expect to maintain friendships with people who find those views abhorrent when you constantly raise them. You need to accept that I do not agree and please stop talking about xyz otherwise I will walk away from this friendship.’

Yep too.

Movements on the left come out with some awful stuff but it's OK somehow because reasons.

The left has a much broader scope of what they consider bigoted / unacceptable and I've come to think it's hypocracy. I feel much more comfortable discussing my views with friends / acquaintances on the right, whacko Trumpy stuff aside (which I accept is a big carve out).

I am increasingly avoiding discussing politics with friends on the left and I've muted the ones who post it on social media because I think most of what they post is ragebait.

Possibly. She's been through a lot of professional upheaval recently and has had to change career, essentially. She's also lost touch with a lot of old friends and has found a lot of new ones. All the new friends seem sound, to be fair, so I don't think she's been "captured". But she seems to feel the need to redefine herself.

Which I'm fine with. I just can't handle the ranting and pushing her views at me.

@latetothefisting

The actual views are almost irrelevant, particularly when you sound like a very open minded, laid back person who is up for conversations about potentially contradictory topics - just not all the time, which is what she wants. The relevant part is that she no longer seems to have anything in common with you that she is willing to talk about, and also doesn't seem like a very pleasant or fun to be person, not necessarily because of her views (although I don't agree with them) but because the way she insists on constantly expressing them regardless of whether they are appropriate, interesting or potentially offensive/upsetting to her audience. So of course it makes sense to no longer want to be friends with her.

This is exactly how I feel. I'm happy to have a debate about most (not all) of the views. I just want it to be conducted in a calm and respectful way which isn't about coopting me or rejecting me if I don't toe the ideological line. And you're right that the views are almost irrelevant. It's the style of delivery and the assumptions she makes about other people's political positions.

She has a very domineering style of conversation: she talks over people and you have to shout to get a word in edgeways. She's always been a bit prone to this but its become far more pronounced recently and a lot of the time I don't feel as if she's actually talking to me per se, she's talking to what she thinks I represent.

I'm the last member of our old friendship group who she's in regular contact with: everyone else has had enough of her and ghosted or faded her out. I think I'm a bit of a cypher for the "old world", even though my views are more nuanced than most of this friendship group (which is all politically on the left).

They all tend to be quite domineering because they don’t want to their views to be challenged. Being challenged runs the risk of them being proven wrong, and they don’t tend to do well with that because it can trigger shame about the fact they’ve been duped and, to their mind, that equals being an awful, stupid person.

That’s why they will double down so strongly in their views as a defence mechanism. They need to avoid feeling shitty at all costs.

It’s a bit like when someone gets scammed in, say, a romance scam, and keeps sending money because they’re in denial about it no matter the evidence. It’s too painful to accept the reality.

@RandomNameChangeAlgorithm One of my close friends has recently had to step back from a longterm friend, because she’s become obsessed with politics and seems to detest anyone who has even slightly differing views to hers. She’s said some nasty things to my friend and hurt her feelings, despite their 20-plus year friendship.

I’m acquainted with her (have met at parties, etc.) and I suspect it’s because she’s got a lot to deal with personally- her son has SEN and they’ve had a particularly tough few months, plus she’s had work pressures. She’s lashing out at the world in frustration. It’s sad but there’s not much that you can do if they won’t stop ranting at you.

@QuinqueremeofNiveneh

Are you interested in gender identity ideology and immigration as issues yourself? They are both hot topics right now and important too, so in many ways worth engaging with. Could you suggest to your friend that you actually set some time aside to talk through them? She can explain her points of view to you and you can ask questions and challenge her as well as share your own point of view. See where you get to. There is a chance that sincere and open engagement and interest from you will be enough, and the issues will fall off the agenda for her.

Good question: I'm interested in both, but with caveats: I feel that the discussion around both topics has become so unpleasantly polarised and toxic that in practice it's hard to have a meaningful and respectful debate so I tend to find talking about them exhausting and dispiriting.

The gender identity ideology question: my position is that I am essentially gender critical and I believe a lot of the trans ideology has distorted basic biology for political ends. I was strongly opposed to gender self-ID etc. That said, I think this totally legitimate position has been blown completely out of proportion and increasingly is being weaponised by elements of the right to bring feminists around to a position which is hostile to gay (as opposed to trans) people.

Immigration: obviously an important issue. I agree that immigration into this country has been poorly managed for decades and that successive governments had a policy which was far too lax and denied the impact of unconstrained immigration on the country. I don't agree, however, that this is the main reason for the decline in the UK economy. I disagree with the position that multiculturalism will always fail: I have lived in London for most of my adult life where multiculturalism works perfectly well. The evidence of grooming gangs is always held up as the ultimate "proof" of multiculturalism's failure: I don't accept that this invalidates previous positive evidence of assimilation into British society.

I've discussed both of these topics at length with my friend. She is such a zealous convert that I think she perceives my failure to wholeheartedly embrace her new positions as evidence that I'm still unthinkingly allied to "progressive" causes. She isn't able to recognise the nuance or the ambivalence on my part and I have got tired of being shouted down and not being listened to.

I have a friend who has recently retired and is now spending more time with her DH.
Hes a conspiracy theorist and men’s rights Tate style activist. She was telling me how she’s started going to Reform meetings and agrees with them. Yet Most of her friends are very left leaning so she’s keeping this quiet.
I’m feeling uneasy as she now sounds just like her DH

I see the self righteous back slapping isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I feel uneasy about someone having different opinions. Oh gosh. Get the smelling salts.

but 'The evidence of grooming gangs is always held up as the ultimate "proof" of multiculturalism's failure: I don't accept that this invalidates previous positive evidence of assimilation into British society.' Saying that by systematically grooming, trafficking and gang raping white girls across multiple towns and cities is a good sign of assimilation is pretty wild! You go girl.

You've completely and deliberately misrepresented what I've said. I've said in multiple posts that I'm not uncomfortable with people having different opinions. I've said several times that I welcome it.

On grooming gangs: I haven't said its a good sign of assimilation. I'm saying the exact opposite. This has been an absolutely disgraceful episode which has set back multiculturalism by decades and demonstrates dangerous groupthink on the part of elements of the progressive left. But this doesn't, in and of itself, demonstrate that multiculturalism isn't possible.

I live in a city where people of multiple faiths, colours and creeds live (for the most part) in tolerance. I know it can work, which is why I'm sceptical of the argument that it has failed.

Huge sympathies, for you both! Hopefully, your friend is just in an initial phase with her new politics, and the missonary zeal will settle down eventually.

Has something happened to send her more online recently? Retirement, illness?Social media algorithms are brutal and will build a single issue echo chamber around you very quickly. It's much harder to get too firebrand about anything if you put the screen down and keep busy with face-to-face, flesh-and-blood real people and general everyday life.

Multiculturalism only works when people stop saying 'It's fine in my town' and start calling out the really disgusting behaviour when it appears that a huge specific demographic isn't able to control themselves or be controlled by the country they are living in.

It is not fine it would appear, in many, many towns and cities.

People are absolutely fucking furious and nothing is happening to sort the country out, that's why they will turn to Farage.

Backslapping each other about how good and right on you [the plural not aimed at any one person] is just literally going to hand this odious man a victory he will never stop grinning about.

If you love your country stop cutting ties with your friends, that's what the powers that be want you to do - no community, no friendships, no cross party ties - it will be an all out civil social war. Its why they are destroying the culture like there is no tomorrow.

Join in, and get hands on with people who [shock horror] disagree with you and find a middle ground.

Find the middle ground with racists who cant stfu about their hatred. Yeah right.
Cut this one off OP, unless she can stop boring you with it.

I've said this before but I agree with the diagnosis but not the solution. I agree that this country has been horribly let down by multiple negative political forces on left and right (and above all by economics). But I don't accept that it automatically follows that everyone has to fall in line with pivoting towards Farage or one of his outriders as a consequence. That doesn't make me a "backslapping" lefty.

Nor am I backslapping. I've been incredibly clear that I'm a political centrist, not a leftist, and am very ambivalent about this person's political views: my central complaint isn't with the views per se, it's with the strident and non-respectful way in which they are delivered. You're reducing it to a simplistic position where its the delusional progressive left versus the pragmatic right. I'm neither: I'm a confused person who occupies a space in the middle of this but who believes that both the right and the left are taking cynical positions for political gain. And apparently I'm not alone.

I'm fully in favour of "joining hands" with people of all political stripes, provided they are open to respectful debate. But this person, who I love and will continue to try to remain in touch with, is not currently allowing a respectful debate to take place.

@QuinqueremeofNiveneh

Has something happened to send her more online recently? Retirement, illness?Social media algorithms are brutal and will build a single issue echo chamber around you very quickly. It's much harder to get too firebrand about anything if you put the screen down and keep busy with face-to-face, flesh-and-blood real people and general everyday life.

Yes, things have happened to her, mainly in her professional life: I won't go into too much detail as its potentially outing, but she was forced to move out of a career she loved recently and I think its been very hard on her. She's also lost touch with a lot of friends due to politics, but this is somewhat chicken and egg, ie I don't know how much the friends left because they couldn't deal with the politics versus her deliberately removing herself from the circle from the same reasons. Probably a bit of both.

I also agree that being in touch with real people day-to-day is one of the most effective ways to immunize people against radicalisation which is partly why I don't want to drop her. Both for her sake and for mine: I don't want her to feel completely cut off from her own friends but I don't want to live in a cosy progressive echo chamber either. But I also want my views to be heard in a respectful way.

It would be nice for people to be able to meet on neutral, respectful ground to discuss this. At the moment, I'm finding this almost impossible.