WTF is this behaviour?

[SquirrelsAreNuts]

For background, DH and I have a combined income of about £150k but he earns way more than I do. I have a minimum wage term-time job because I do all the childcare for our DC and DSC. We also live in one of the most expensive parts of the SE. Wouldn't be my choice, but it's so we can be close to DH's DC (my DSC).

We're comfortable but not rolling in it. I mention all that just because what triggered this thread was money, but it's not really about money IYSWIM?

We've had next year's holiday reserved but not paid for since the summer. It was coming up to the time we have to confirm everything and start putting deposits down and booking flights, etc. DH has been fully up to speed on all these plans, the timings, the costs, everything. I've managed the admin but have kept him informed of all the details at each step. As far as I was concerned he had signed off on all of it. I don't know what more I could have done, which is why I'm baffled.

Last night DH and I sat down together and spent about an hour searching the best flights in terms of price and time and figured out the most cost effective way to do it was fly out to one airport on a one way ticket and fly back from a different airport on a one way ticket.

We booked the outbound flight together and then he lost interest and went to sit in the front room. So I carried on and booked the inbound flight on my own (but with his agreement, I thought).

Once it was done I went into the front room and told him I'd booked the flights back and he started freaking out. Saying that now we're committed to the holiday cost and he didn't realise it was going to be so much. How much was I going to pay towards it, etc, etc. I was floored. What did he think we'd just been doing? It was such a weird reaction from him I didn't know how to respond other than WTF.

He freaked out so much he insisted I cancelled the whole thing. So this morning I've wasted a load of time cancelling the flights and trying to get our money back. The kids are going to be so upset.

He sort of has form for this. In the past he's agreed to having work done on our house (which is a fixer upper). Has let me put in a load of time and effort contacting builders and getting quotes, etc, only to say no to everything at the last minute.

I feel utterly powerless in this relationship in terms of finances. I don't think he's being controlling as such, it's more his extreme anxiety at spending any money. But the net effect on me and the kids is the same. House and garden is crumbling around our ears and we never go anywhere.

For the first time ever in our marriage I am wondering what it would be like to leave him as this latest holiday reverse ferret feels like one too many. But the thought is terrifying. I'm sure if you asked him, he'd say I'm a wasteful spendthrift who just wants the high life. But to him, the 'highlife' is putting the heating on, or having the dishwasher on anything but Eco setting.

I haven't been able to stop crying this morning but I can't put my finger on why. It's not just the cancelled holiday. It's the weird behaviour - letting me do all that organising and spending an hour booking flights with me then completely changing his mind - I don't even know what to call it.

This is what's so weird though - he doesn't seem to want anything. Hobby bits and pieces aside. If I stopped buying nice food, he would live off cereal and protein shakes and genuinely not mind. If I stopped cleaning the house, he wouldn't notice unless there was actual black mould on the ceiling or something. If I stopped doing laundry for him, he would likely not notice and just become bemused when his pants ran out - wondering what had happened to them all. We've been together nearly 18 years and he still wears t shirts that pre-date our relationship.

But then the kids and I would suffer, living of protein shakes in a shithole.

He doesn't seem to have the same needs as 'normal' people. The need for fun and change of scenery and to feel like your life has some kind of momentum. If I never suggested we go on holiday or go out somewhere nice, it would never occur to him to think of it. I can completely imagine a version of our life where I stop doing anything and he doesn't notice. He would go to work, come home, do his hobby on weekends and then be mildly surprised to learn that he had been doing that for a whole year with no variation.

Incidentally my DP hates spending money on holidays (dislikes holidays full stop really) and if I was financially dependent on him to pay for it all, we would not go anywhere. He wouldn't let me book one and then refuse to pay though.

I think he’s got the pressure of running the household and the cost of everyone in it, on his shoulders. It’s a shame YOU have to live somewhere expensive because of his past life, but that’s what you bought into.

It might be wise to rethink how you can bring more money to the family table.

He’ll have maintenance to pay for his other children too I assume.

What Vroomfondel'swaistcoat and Gruffporcupine said.

My dad was exactly the same. Not controlling, but a deep-seated fear of spending too much and utter, abject panic even when funds were there.

(I fight against a similar mentality in myself, and envy my sister who is gloriously and frivolously not like this at all!)

He has loads of savings. He doesn't want to spend any of it though.

God knows what it's going to be like when he comes home this evening. I have no idea what I even want to say to him.

You're crying because you know that despite him being the one to u turn after making no effort to be useful towards the plans, you will both be seen to be letting the kids down.

The reason single life appeals is because you know you would never let the kids down yourself, even if you couldn't give them nice things.

You also know you're basically stuck in an expensive area unless you move the kids away, which you can't do without upsetting them.

So basically you're between two hards and need to choose between letting your kids down now and again with no real power over it or starting over and disrupting them.

It's really shit and I hope you can have a bath and a good sleep and give yourself some time to decide how to handle it.

We have them 50/50 so he doesn't actually pay maintenance. I have been looking and applying for other jobs but the market is brutal. There's very little in my commutable distance that would pay enough to cover the additional costs of childcare, commuting, etc. But I am looking.

He doesn't seem to have a fear of spending money on himself however. Funny that.

He doesn't seem to have the same needs as 'normal' people. The need for fun and change of scenery and to feel like your life has some kind of momentum. If I never suggested we go on holiday or go out somewhere nice, it would never occur to him to think of it. I can completely imagine a version of our life where I stop doing anything and he doesn't notice.

Surely he’s not always been like this though?

Before you had kids he must have taken you out on dates, planned surprises and cleaned and cooked meals for you both?

totally agree.

He sees you as being in the weak position because you earn so much less, he is not putting any value on your sacrificing a better income to do the bulk of the child rearing - so that he can continue to earn his much better salary and continue to advance his career. And somehow, this sacrifice on your part means he gets to tell you what you can and can't do. You are not his employee.

Where this disparity really shows up is in terms of pensions, savings, and career progression. If you say in a lower grade job for too long due to time constraints you could find yourself unable to get back to a more satisfying and well paid career...

I hope you are claiming child benefit and not been talked into it being more tax advantageous (for him!) to not claim it - because it sounds like you'd never see that money and its for the children.

I'd also consider.. what does your salary go on.. and what does his (im not asking you to reveal this in the post, just have a think) . Do you have access to joint savings or do you pay for the children's things and he puts money into his saving ( although I think you mentioned he's pretty clueless about saving, keeping it in a current account - which I presume you don't have access to) Whatever the case... it sounds like you don't have savings that you yourself could use for things.... so it sounds like all your salary is spent and there's an inequality in the household income pot right there. There's also a real difference between saving for a good reason and just hoarding.

I think in your position you should maybe consider some counselling on your own to get a better insight into how things are, how to deal with them, what is possible to resolve/change and if not what you want to do about it.

When he spends money on himself, he will agonise over the purchase for days. Put it in his online basket, leave it, come back to it, ask me about whether he should get it. I've always tried to be supportive and say yes, he works hard and deserves nice things, he can afford it, etc, etc. I supposed I haven't wanted to seem like some shrew telling him what he can and can't spend his money on. And also to encourage him to get more comfortable with spending what you can afford on things that make you happy. It's an alien concept to him.

But it all seems to have backfired on me anyway, because now he has a load of nice expensive stuff and we don't have a holiday.

this, paying a lump sum can be daunting to some people and if he is the main earner is he worrying about outgoings for the rest of the year or late expenses for any of the children that can appear.

setting aside pots for could be helpful to visualise things separately.

so he clearly has an issue with spending on things straight away and needs time to things and price compare etc.

I think money pots is a better way to go, it's not a behaviour he reserves for just for you.

A lot of people have financial anxiety at the moment because the economy is in such a dire state and the prospects of promotion / increased future earnings are dwindling. It doesn't make his behaviour acceptable, but its Wirth trying to et under the skin of what is going on. I would also look into ways you can improve your own financial independence.

He did cook for me. And he can and does still cook sometimes.

As far as dating is concerned, because he had his DC 50/50 there always seemed to be a reason why dates had to be low key. It was attractive to see that he was such a devoted father, but he definitely didn't clear space for 'us' in his life. I was more expected to slot in and fit round his and the DSC. I posted on here about my frustrations around this at the time and got torn to shreds - told I hated his kids, shouldn't get involved with him if I couldn't accept being second best, etc. I had very low self esteem at the time and was recently bereaved so I thought I was in the wrong for expecting more. I wish I knew then what I know now.

Assuming you want the marriage to work you need to insist on total financial transparency and get a budget sorted out.

get a spreadsheet and do a systems affairs. List all assets, including savings, debts, expenses and incomes and then agree how the monthly salaries and any income needs to be spent. Set up a savings pot for different things like new car, Christmas, holidays and yearly bills. So these don’t come as a shock, the holiday is effectively paid in advance.

if he won’t agree to that then he isn’t treating you as an equal and tbh I would be looking to get myself into a stronger position and to start again.

I wouldn’t let him fob me off with paying solely for child care. It’s 50/50 if he won’t give you equal financial rights

There's very little in my commutable distance that would pay enough to cover the additional costs of childcare, commuting, etc

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the additional childcare costs have to come out of your salary, because you are the one that is going back to work. The children are equally both of yours and childcare costs should be split between your two salaries proportionately.

Either he just hates spending money and is a hoarder - I grew up poor (still pretty poor) and spending money actually makes me feel physically sick.

I don’t think people realise what it’s like to not be able to afford food etc and so you’ve got a survival instinct to always be prepared and going against that instinct is incredibly difficult.

Or he’s controlling/narcissistic and he enjoys the power of letting you do something and then taking it back.

Its hard to work out which one he is or if he’s a mixture of both.

Funnily enough this is very similar to my mum.
My mum is definitely a hoarder and grew up poor but she is absolutely narcissistic/controlling, it’s only as I’m getting older that I’m realising it.

She will ask, sometimes beg, that you do something and then turn around and change her mind after you’ve spent time and energy doing it.

It’s a different situation but we’ve stopped doing so many things for her. We get her to do things herself and so she is the one putting the time and energy into it.

When she begs us to do something and we choose to do it eg sell her car, we say no and she promises to not be difficult etc and then we say we’ve done it - she’ll then kick off and we will go through the motions of pretending to get the car back and then she’ll beg us to sell it again - now we say no (yes we used to do it multiple times).

If DH wants a holiday then he needs to book it.
If he asks you to do it then put the money in your account.
Maybe tell him you’ve done it before actually doing it or just book it and tell him that you’re not cancelling it.

The biggest issue here is that the finances aren’t equal.
I completely believe in having separate accounts but there also needs to be a joint account where 50% of both of your earnings go into and holidays etc needs to come out of this account.

I agree with @BarBiWon . These are not your costs to shoulder alone, they are a family cost.

Going back to when he freaked out and demanded to know what exactly you're going to pay towards the holiday, how dare he? That isn't just panic, that's an attack. He sees the family income as his money, and he sees your contribution to the family as less than.

I note you also referred to 'his' savings?

You would be financially better off than you are now if you got divorced.

Sorry you got torn to shreds on here. I don’t start threads anymore for that reason.

I am trying to work out if this is him and he genuinely can’t help it or if he’s capable of doing things but just can’t be bothered and it’s more a control thing.

If he was different in the beginning then he can help it.

Well yes the OP does say she thinks it's anxiety.

But the whole point of the thread
is that she asking for other people's views on his behaviour and my view is it is controlling behaviour calculated to undermine OP's place in the relationship

Note that she says he doesn' have anxiety when it comes to spending money on his hobby.

I can't work it out either!

In the beginning we both earned the same amount so the dynamics were very different. After our eldest DC was born, he got a humongous promotion while I was on mat leave and that really upset the power balance between us and it's never restored.

Have you laid out the amount of effort that you put in, and if so what was his response? He needs to know that he is being incredibly unfair and wasting your time, and I would phrase it that way.

"Hey, I know you get uncomfortable spending large amounts of money, but this was something we had agreed on, and I spent a lot of time working on the admin for it. I've now just had to spend more time cancelling it all. Why do you think it's okay to waste my time like this?"

I was planning on saying something like this to him tonight. He's wasted so much of my time. And in the past with all the builders quotes, finding them, speaking to them, arranging a time for them to come round to quote, fitting that in amongst everything. All with his agreement. Only for him to panic and do a U turn after I'd wasted all that time and effort.

It makes me so angry.

You might be focusing on the wrong thing. Whatever the reason for freaking out, you're not compatible. You want a certain life, he wants a different one and because he sees himself as having more power due to earning more money, you are at a big disadvantage.

You could try talking to him or seeking counselling but the fact is, unless something major changes in his behaviour, this relationship is never going to work for you.