A messy wife and children

[Stu01]

Hello,

This is not a new problem. Every solution I’ve tried has failed and left me feeling more and more powerless.

So to the context - my wife and I are full time professionals who do the exact same job. Our hours are mostly identical. She does an extra half hour or so of work more at home in the evenings than I.

We’ve been together for all of her adult life and most of mine. This is not a new problem.

My wife loves to clean - she genuinely gets a buzz out of it (no idea why) but doesn’t do it- and she is very good at remembering birthdays and clubs and knowing day to day things. She is an excellent mother - phenomenal. We have two children, 10 and 7, and the youngest is a challenge. I find myself ignored and derided by my youngest and my choice is to walk away because otherwise I shall be furious.

My wife has been brought up by two loving parents who did everything for her. Her mother did wish me luck when we moved in together. Ever since I have known her, her life has been filled with clutter and love.

In contrast, I have scraped myself out of several challenging home lives and have lived in pressurised, immaculate homes. I was taught from a young age to clean, tidy, iron and take responsibility for myself. I didn’t lack in love, but I knew my mess should be dealt with.

Our houses have always been full of work and possessions. As the children came into our lives, we declutterred and she stayed at home to cook, clean and raise our children. Here is where it began.

For ten years now, our houses have deteriorated into a constant day to day clutter-fest. Children’s toys, shoes, paperwork, washing, clothes, bags, books and whatever else.

I have handled the laundry, half the ironing, cooking and most of the day to day clean up since the children started school. But as time goes by I’ve seen that she and the children don’t really have the tidiness of the house as a priority. I on the other hand find it hard to manage mentally and practically in a messy and disorganised house.

Laundry I have done can be left unmoved for a week until I snap. Ironing I have done is discarded on the floor and crumpled within days. Toys yearned for are trodden and broken. Meanwhile, the TV is on non-stop, the noise grows and I oscillate in a corner.

I’ve raised my feelings, suggested things and even done everything in a passive aggressive fury. No change. I’ve let the carpets be covered and trampled all over it. No change. I’ve bagged it all up and threatened to throw it away. No change. I’ve bagged some up and actually thrown it away. No change. My current approach is to only pick up whatever I have interacted with and deal with my own washing (excepting school uniform). My wife likes it when I iron her clothes - they are quietly languishing.

Resentment builds, I retreat into myself and find the only clear space to sit down and read. But I can’t concentrate. Our communication has deteriorated and she feels lonely.

She’s lonely mostly in the weekday mornings because I get on and organise myself. She on the other hand cannot find the children’s uniforms (we take responsibility for ironing and storing half each in a designated place) or water bottles (we have about 30), can’t decide what shoes to where (48 pairs), makes their breakfast (both children can do it themselves as we’ve taught them), does her hair and make up, and personally dresses our 7 year old (who refuses to do so) who miraculously can do it themselves on weekends. I just can’t bear to berate or dictate to them anymore - I’m just so fed up and isolated.

So I’m back from the gym at 6.45. She’s dressed by then. I eat breakfast, shower and change, and then I wash up and tidy up and wait. If people can’t find things, I tell them where I saw them last (on the floor). If people aren’t doing anything, I point out what is needed. I teach 10-11 year olds and know what they are capable of. The house descends into a fury of lateness and panic - I am still and seething and my children are dawdling around barefoot.

I fear I am being petty and pedantic. I fear we are babying the children. I fear I am unfeeling and not setting them a good example. I fear my expectations are too great and hers too low. I fear I am not being inclusive. I fear for my marriage. I fear for my sanity.

What do I do next?

My thought is who is paying for all these water bottles, shoes and excess clothes? Presumably you are paying for at least half of it. Start with a budget. Sit down with her and talk about the sheer waste of money and amount of excess materialism. If you can find a day when the children are at school or out , ask her to go through each room with you and jettison the excess. Take it to the tip or charity shop. Then agree a budget for spending. At least then you can focus on that aspect, not her lack of organisational ability.

Get a weekly cleaner and stop ironing.
Cut down on all the clubs so your kids have free time and are not exhausted and overwhelmed.

Could you agree to sit down once a week to talk about what is bothering you both and really listen to each other without the kids present?

Also you say your wife is a magician and an amazing mother, but in what ways? What does she do well?

I feel you because our house is chaos too and I feel totally powerless to change it! I think all 4 of us are either autistic, ADHD or both and our house looks like a tornado hit it. I try my best and use body doubling to help, but there's a never ending stream of plastic bottles and cans that, along with the laundry, seem to take up all my time! I would love a decluttering expert to come in and help. Maybe Santa will bring me one! 🤞🏼🤭

It sounds very much as though your wife, and possibly child, have ADHD. It is not a matter of willpower! It's a matter of poor executive function.

You have admitted that you walk away from your child when they are difficult and leave it all to your wife. That alone would be enough to make me want to leave you. Go and get yourself some counselling about how to deal with a difficult child, then step up and parent your children equally.

As far as the mess and clutter goes, your wife is going to have to meet you somewhere in the middle on that. But what you don't understand is that if she has ADHD, she won't have the faintest clue how to do it.

Look up the Clutterbug system. Better still, get the book and both of you read it. I would put good money on it that she is a butterfly and you are one of the micro-organising bugs! Your compromise will have to be much more visual, macro organising systems then you would naturally be comfortable with. But it really will be the only way for her to be able to move towards you.

Between you, you need to set up a system that works for her rather than for you. Once that is in place, she needs to make an effort to do the minimum to keep that system going.

I was unable to keep my house in any kind of order, despite working really hard at it and being desperate to change. That one system has revolutionised my entire life. Our house is never immaculate and show home ready. But neither is it ever in a state where I couldn't have someone over without any notice. It's always good enough nowadays, and if you're struggling with executive function and a busy job and general overwhelm, good enough is good enough.

Wow, hopefully she'll be free of you quickly. I'm wishing her happiness

Team cleaner. A decent cleaner means that you always know that at least once a week things will be in order and you start again. It’s the peace of mind of knowing that there will shortly be a fix that helped me in my years of house sharing with messies.

It can be practically dealt with unlike meanness or dishonesty - appreciate can also drive you crazy! Child wise, you may just have to accept it’s up to you to set the example there.

It 100% sounds like ADHD. I speak from personal experience of a house with 4 people with the condition, things can quickly become chaotic.

You don’t sound like you’re helping in the mornings, just idly watching and pointing out where they’re all going wrong. Maybe if you’re so put together then try helping instead of worrying about yourself. It’s fine for you to go to the gym, shower, get ready etc, but you’re complaining about your wife getting ready and putting on makeup? Both of you should be helping get the children ready.

You both sound so different.
I wonder if you are a little over the top as well.
My husband is like a soldier, so organised. And I'm not.
And yet when he's away on trips etc I'm much better and house is a lot more organised. I think when the pressure is gone for everything to be perfect I can maintain the house better.
He had to go on an extended work placement one time,and that's when I learnt to do things my way.

Not saying you are a perfectionist but if you really want to work together, then why not both play to your strengths?

Like shes clearly better at deep cleans, weekly cleans etc
Why don't you do the daily most important stuff and she can do the things that have no exact time limit and no pressure.
Also, why not work with her to do things for the whole week?
Like on a Saturday, all ironing done for the week, all hanged up or folded etc
That works a lot better for me.

I don't know if I do have Adhd or something but I've always noticed I can way more in short spurts, like say a guest is coming over in 30 min I can move mountains, I left my dissertation the whole year and did it a week before deadline and got a really high mark etc
So I can do all ironing for the week in an hour and yet I cant do it daily.
So, I've just accepted how I am.

If I want the house to stay clean,I can't let it get dirty at all. So clean up as you go along etc that took me ages to learn 🤣
Also,she need to have 30 min a day decluttering,no idea why but things accumulate so fast so I have to fight daily.
Also, I hate hoovering and cleaning the living room so that's my daughter's jobs.
No reason for parenrs to do everything
I much prefer cleaning the kitchen or toilets,making things shine give me satisfaction but tidying up?

I think one of the first things you need to tackle is your different attitudes to how your children should be parented.

From what you've posted it sounds like your DW constantly does everything for them, while you try to make them self sufficient, teach them how to do things and then insist they do them, hold them to relatively high standards. You are frustrated that she spends lots of time doing things you think the children should be doing themselves. There's no way for you to override her, if you tell your DC to get their own breakfast because you know they're capable and they complain (or maybe even if they don't complain) your DW swoops in and does it anyway (and then doing her make up or choosing her shoes makes her late...). So you have pretty much taken a step back. You think it's bad for the kids to be treated in this way, think it infantalises them. Your DW thinks it's what you should be doing for them. You both think you've got it right and the other wrong and it builds resentment, probably as much on her side as yours. The kids, meantime are screwed over by your failure to present a united front.

This, all alone, could wreck your marriage (and your relationship with your kids) and I really think you need to tackle it before worrying about the tidiness of the house. Some candid but friendly conversations may be enough, read some parenting books together, go on a parenting course, may be all of it. You might need professional help, counseling of some kind, or a mediator. This will require both of you to compromise some. It means you both need to respect the other's perspective on parenting and understand that there will be value in their approach as well as yours. Then come up with a compromise that you both can live with.

The issue with the 7 year old sounds like it's probably related to the unsettled parenting, though agree with pp that your walking away but seething over it is worrying and a really poor response regardless of everything else going on, so you may need to work on that separately. Spend some time 1:1 with the 7 year old.

Once you've got a game plan you and your wife can use to approach parenting as a team and you have that down better, you can start to look at the clutter issue. You know DW has always been this way and you adore her anyway, so it's not going to be realistic to think it's just a matter of implementing a cleaning routine. But you can probably come to an agreement to keep some spaces more clutter free than others, to rearrange chores so you don't feel taken for granted, and to all take a bit of time each day or each week to sweep everything up.

Wife = ADHD
You = OCD

Is a housekeeper affordable? Someone rational needs to find a middle ground for you all.

Team cleaner. A decent cleaner means that you always know that at least once a week things will be in order and you start again

I don't think that's true though.
Cleaners shouldn't have to tidy up other people's abominable messes.
They should just clean and polish and hoover and mop floors.

Wife = ADHD
You = OCD

Nope.

Wife = Lazy
You = Normal

Yes to that.

And not just watch, but judge.

He's not the victim here if he has the time and energy to go to the gym every morning and rock up to the weekday morning scene in the kitchen at 6:45am.

It really sounds like you have too much stuff, which is why is is getting moved around and in the way all the time.

Less is more. You need to declutter and minimalise. Marie Kondo. Over consumption. Your wife sounds as if in later life should could develop into a serious hoarder. 12 litres of vegetable soup. Is that necessary? Sounds like there are underlying psychological issues at play here...

Start by a massive declutter and look at keeping only what you need/use.
Look at your consumption levels / are you buying too much. Do the kids have too many toys? Is stuff being held onto and not get rid off after use. Time to bag things up for the charity shop.

I'm so glad our marriage isn't like that, 7 kids and a tidy house because we all automatically do jobs wether it's cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, putting toys away,making beds emptying bins etc etc..I was brought up that a family means everyone mucks in with whatever needs done and the quicker it's done the quicker we have tv time or going out time etc. Our kids range from 2-15 and every single one helps with several things each day wether it's clearing meal plates after we've eaten actually our 2 year old twins love filling the dishwasher so that's one of there current jobs. Even out boys will put on washing machine once it's full and hang it outside or in depending on the weather. Hubby dives in with whatever needs done once in from work. I recently gave up full time work so yes able to do a few more jobs he did like garden etc...The way I see a happy family is do everything together then no mess and happy life for all :)

There's a lot of unhelpful replies here that aren't exactly 'advice'. You're obviously at the end of your tether and sound desperate. You definitely need some therapy to work through this anger and resentment of the situation, which btw is quite understandable and not fair but a main worry is how you're talking about your kids. It doesn't sound healthy, like theyre just a nuisance to you - your wife doesnt help as shes allowing and maybe inadvertently encouraging this behaviour from your kids. Agree with others that she's likely got ADHD as has your 7 year old. So what can you do about it? You really need to take the situation by the horns more and seriously sit down and speak with her and tell her how its making you feel and get her to see that she needs to make more effort as a joint partnership and almost rewire how things are done around the house and literally sit the kids down and present it to them jointly. The household needs a shake up or you're going to crack and (presumably) she doesn't want that so needs to respect you and your needs for the household, meet in the middle though, it cant all be your way, give a little slack for certain things, especially if you do think she has ADHD (difficult to suggest this obviously). Maybe couples therapy could help and could potentially uncover any mental health stuff anyway for you both but definitely sounds like you both need to be stricter with the kids and get them to understand a set of 'new rules'for a happy healthy household, afterall its only teaching them skills theyre gonna need in the big wide world.

"Even our boys will put on washing machine once it's full and hang it outside or in depending on the weather."

Even your boys?!

Sounds a bit like you need to massively declutter. Do you not see it’s crazy to have 30’water bottles?

Are you able to take a few days off work together to spend sorting out stuff around the house? Be ruthless.

Our house is a shit tip because we have got lots of stuff to be sorted out but we don’t have time and are exhausted. But when you have kids, it’s easily to build up too much stuff.

Who does the other stuff like taking the kids to their clubs or arranging dentist and haircut etc?

As well as the ADHD you have had very different upbringings. You want your 7 year old to be independent as you probably were at that age but she views them as just a 7 year old. A 7 year old with a hectic routine will behave like that most likely adhd or not and looks like they need some affection from you, not just walking away as they are feeling overwhelmed.
You and your wife are very different but you must complement each other in different ways. This isn’t something to divorce over but some bitesize solutions as have been suggested above would go a long way like prepping the night before. Life with young kids is overwhelming especially with 2 working parents. It gets easier. Later in life you may have struggles and find she is better at dealing with certain things than you are. You adore her so time to help her to help you.

Interesting that so many people think the wife has adhd. I'm wondering if I have it myself.

I honestly don't seem to see mess a lot of the time. I will pick something random off the floor and put it in an equally random place. I can leave an item of clothing on the sofa for days. I know it is there but it hasn't registered in my mind that I need to move it. All my shelves and drawers are chaotic. I do have too much stuff and find it hard to throw things away.

I wonder if your wife has something similar? If yes, then making a set specific time for tidying does help. A half hour of following a list of very set specific tasks without any distraction at all. Pointing things out absolutely does not help if your wife is like me as the brain kind of detaches itself from things it doesn't need to deal with it immediately.

I might be way off, but some of what your described makes sense to me.

One useful tip I've picked up is to turn "clutter in stasis" into "clutter in motion". So clutter in stasis are piles or corners of mess that have slowly developed and become untouched and embedded in your house. "Clutter in motion" are things that have temporarily become out of place because they're being used but will be put back eventually.

If you turn clutter in stasis into clutter in motion, for example by emptying a long-untouched "drawer if doom" onto the kitchen table, then you incentivise yourself to deal with it.

So even if you can't immediately deal with clutter, even just moving it around helps. It "un-embeds" it in your house.

You are being very unreasonable. There’s 3 of you and 1 of her. Your children are old enough to take responsibility for tidying and putting away their toys and clothes if you had taught them how to do so consistently since they were little.

It also used to give me the rage when my husband would do the laundry but wouldn’t put the clothes away. Doing the laundry in our house is also folding and putting the clothes away- by not putting the clean clothes away you are practically asking for them to be left sitting there until they go back into circulation since your laundry load is not on anyone else’s mental radar in the same way it’s on yours.

I would bet that if the roles were reversed, and your wife was the tidy one, your home would be neat and tidy and the kids would have learnt to tidy. So ask yourself why it’s not the case with you? Do you think it’s only a mother’s job to teach the children those life skills? Or if you have tried to teach them to tidy, do you do it in a passive aggressive/ angry way that means they don’t learn or have developed negative associations with tidying and cleaning?

My advice is that you take responsibility for teaching your children things you are the stronger parent at. Teach them to declutter their things by doing it alongside them (the storage method is a good one- where they can keep anything they want so long as it fits comfortably in the designated container). Teach them to tidy by having them do it with you and making it fun. Perhaps they get to pick the song playlist and you sing along with them. Perhaps you make it a game by dressing up as cleaners and you be really silly in a maid’s costume. Perhaps you make a rewards system where they can earn treats and days out.

It the rest of your house is decluttered and tidy, and only your wife’s things are messy - she may naturally start to feel less overwhelmed about maintaining the home and take steps to declutter her own things. I would recommend Joshua Becker’s family minimalism book for tips on how to gently have those conversations with your wife.

If it were me, and it somewhat is, but to a much lesser degree and with details different, I would do a couple of things.

1, forget hoping for a miracle. you can't change people so fundamentally, and chances are your wife will never be as tidy and organized as you want her to be.

2, Combine making more ways for you to cope, with small improvements in both your attitude and her (and the kid's ) willingness to tidy.

Give yourself a tidy space that is just yours, confine the mess to certain spaces. That will at least help you cope day to day. If you have a clean study, bedroom, dinning room etc. its matters a lot less if the living room is a state.

But equally, withdrawing from cleaning roles because it isn't fair will just bread resentment. Life isn't fair, and family's aren't fair, and we all pick up more of the load in some ways and less in others. It sounds like your wife is picking up more of the parenting load, and you need to pick up more of the tidying load. Is that fair? I don't know, but it doens't really matter. We do what we need to for our families, not because it is 'fair'. Don't be taken advantage of, but refusing to do things because of their issues with tidyness is just a downhill path to unhappiness.

However, part of you being involved and doing more would be that you need to see small shifts from your wife. You can't change her entirely, but people can gradually and slowly improve themselves. I'm sure you can find small and focused ways that she can help to make the situation more managable. Don't overwhelm things with every problem, but just focus on one thing - and see if you can get improvement out of your family, and then take it from there.

Sounds like a huge mismatch. You need to get your kids performing as they are taking p**s. There is no such thing as can't at 7. If your wife can make 12 litres of vegetable soup, she is dancing along to her own tune whereas she should really be spending that time allotted to family time. Maybe the gym is not her thing, which I can understand but any odd hours should be put across to getting your place in order. I worked full time in a very demanding career, never had a cleaner, kept on top of everything and brought up a very competent child. This was all thanks to being well organised. You are doing your kids no favour. She should be listening to what you say. Could you introduce boxes where things were put, i.e. toys, clothes etc. Sorry, I don't do all this nurturing stuff, with all this love and feeding vegetable soup. Spitz spotz, call Mary Poppins.

I feel for you because it is the same here, but I am the tidy one who is responsible for all domestic chores. We don't even have a cleaner. I work FT plus OT night work on top. Good part of my weekend is cleaning and grocery shopping. My kids are messy, there are little room of floor space to walk on in their bedrooms. Everything gets lost, stressed of not being able to find this and that. I haven't invited any guests around for years.

I don't have a solution, but learning to embrace it, let go. As funny as it sounds, meditation has brought me out of feeling rock bottom.

The things that struck me were:

Way too much stuff - 30 water bottles! 48 pairs of shoes for 4 people - are there really 12 pairs per person, or if they belong mostly to adults, then even a different pair of shoes every working day (which I don't understand, but might be important to some people if they love clothes/style) is still only 5 pairs for that one adult? Or did you mean that your partner has 48 pairs herself? If the latter then some serious decluttering is needed - not because of the number of shoes, but because of the overwhelming choice that seems to paralyse her. Maybe a shoe rota is needed - these are the 10 pairs I will use this month, next month a new 10 pairs?

The way you divide things sounds odd - sounds like the division is half of each chore, rather than "you do this, I'll do that". Would altering that help? For example, as the morning school prep is a big stress for you, rather than you doing half of it, knowing where those things are, and frantic running around to find the other half of things, would it be less stress if you did the whole of the ironing and setting out for the morning, so that all the stuff is ready, if she takes on the whole of a different chore?