A messy wife and children

[Stu01]

Hello,

This is not a new problem. Every solution I’ve tried has failed and left me feeling more and more powerless.

So to the context - my wife and I are full time professionals who do the exact same job. Our hours are mostly identical. She does an extra half hour or so of work more at home in the evenings than I.

We’ve been together for all of her adult life and most of mine. This is not a new problem.

My wife loves to clean - she genuinely gets a buzz out of it (no idea why) but doesn’t do it- and she is very good at remembering birthdays and clubs and knowing day to day things. She is an excellent mother - phenomenal. We have two children, 10 and 7, and the youngest is a challenge. I find myself ignored and derided by my youngest and my choice is to walk away because otherwise I shall be furious.

My wife has been brought up by two loving parents who did everything for her. Her mother did wish me luck when we moved in together. Ever since I have known her, her life has been filled with clutter and love.

In contrast, I have scraped myself out of several challenging home lives and have lived in pressurised, immaculate homes. I was taught from a young age to clean, tidy, iron and take responsibility for myself. I didn’t lack in love, but I knew my mess should be dealt with.

Our houses have always been full of work and possessions. As the children came into our lives, we declutterred and she stayed at home to cook, clean and raise our children. Here is where it began.

For ten years now, our houses have deteriorated into a constant day to day clutter-fest. Children’s toys, shoes, paperwork, washing, clothes, bags, books and whatever else.

I have handled the laundry, half the ironing, cooking and most of the day to day clean up since the children started school. But as time goes by I’ve seen that she and the children don’t really have the tidiness of the house as a priority. I on the other hand find it hard to manage mentally and practically in a messy and disorganised house.

Laundry I have done can be left unmoved for a week until I snap. Ironing I have done is discarded on the floor and crumpled within days. Toys yearned for are trodden and broken. Meanwhile, the TV is on non-stop, the noise grows and I oscillate in a corner.

I’ve raised my feelings, suggested things and even done everything in a passive aggressive fury. No change. I’ve let the carpets be covered and trampled all over it. No change. I’ve bagged it all up and threatened to throw it away. No change. I’ve bagged some up and actually thrown it away. No change. My current approach is to only pick up whatever I have interacted with and deal with my own washing (excepting school uniform). My wife likes it when I iron her clothes - they are quietly languishing.

Resentment builds, I retreat into myself and find the only clear space to sit down and read. But I can’t concentrate. Our communication has deteriorated and she feels lonely.

She’s lonely mostly in the weekday mornings because I get on and organise myself. She on the other hand cannot find the children’s uniforms (we take responsibility for ironing and storing half each in a designated place) or water bottles (we have about 30), can’t decide what shoes to where (48 pairs), makes their breakfast (both children can do it themselves as we’ve taught them), does her hair and make up, and personally dresses our 7 year old (who refuses to do so) who miraculously can do it themselves on weekends. I just can’t bear to berate or dictate to them anymore - I’m just so fed up and isolated.

So I’m back from the gym at 6.45. She’s dressed by then. I eat breakfast, shower and change, and then I wash up and tidy up and wait. If people can’t find things, I tell them where I saw them last (on the floor). If people aren’t doing anything, I point out what is needed. I teach 10-11 year olds and know what they are capable of. The house descends into a fury of lateness and panic - I am still and seething and my children are dawdling around barefoot.

I fear I am being petty and pedantic. I fear we are babying the children. I fear I am unfeeling and not setting them a good example. I fear my expectations are too great and hers too low. I fear I am not being inclusive. I fear for my marriage. I fear for my sanity.

What do I do next?

I hope so! Though mumsnet is renowned for hating house guests!

Well if it is indeed ADHD, then it makes tge OP attitude even worse no?
Because not only is he refusing to take responsibility for parenting his own dcs and blames the OP for things not being to his standards but he also is refusing to accommodate their disability, including finding appropriate ways to help both of them cope and/or kearn.
(Nadine the family here btw. Not talking put of my arse)

If you're allowing your children to leave the mess just because they are tired and scream for an hour then you're literally programing them to scream and be lazy about tidying.
Discipline is a muscle. Good habits come from repetition and creating new pathways in the brain. Yes its hard in the beginning but soon enough tidying up doesn't seem like much and they also learn to not make too much mess.
If screaming is rewarded then they will keep screaming every time because they learnt it works. They will never learn that tidying is fine and not too difficult because they didn't have the practice of actually having to do it and sticking with a task. The pathways in the brain didn't form.

Like I said before. It doesn't seem you're actually parenting your children. It is not their fault.

I said that to the op earlier.

You can start making a difference today:

Line up all 30 water bottles and your 4 family members and ask them to pick a bottle.

Then get rid of the other 26 that are just taking up space and getting in the way.

At most, let them select 1 and another as a replacement: 2 per person MAX.

Then get rid of the remaining 22 bottles. Nobody needs 7 bottles per person!

Can you see how this problem has started?

Is the problem with the laundry not being put away after it is ironed and folded because there is no space?

I agree with this. My grandparents didn’t divvy up identical tasks 50:50. They contributed with their strengths in a combined effort, like team work. That was until my grandpa became sick with cancer, overcame that then had dementia and pretty much needed to be nursed and looked after for the rest of his life. My grandma then took care of him and everything really. When I was little they owned their own business and worked together, again in different roles and combined roles.

@Stu01 I can very much relate to the need for a clean and tidy environment. I know what it is like to live with people who not only don’t tidy up after themselves but seem to like or be very comfortable surrounded by their clutter. Some people are just naturally like that. For me I really don’t like messy cooks. I like to be organised and clean up as I go so there isn’t a big pile of mess to clean up afterwards. But I have lived with messy cooks and there is no changing them.

An older woman once said to me that it takes all sorts to make this world. That is true. It makes the world an interesting place with its diversity. One of the challenges of life is to learn how to get along with people’s differences.

I have been training my dd to put things back where they belong after she has finished using it. That way she will always know where it is and can find it. It has taken a few years. What really worked was her dad and I worked as a team. While she was at school we both cleaned out her bedroom. Neither of us wanted to but it had to be done. We ruthlessly threw out bags of stuff (old/broken toys, trillions of artworks, craft scraps etc.). We stored sentimental toys etc in tubs. Our dd’s job was to choose from her stuff what she really wanted to go back in her room and what she wants to keep stored in a tub under the house and what she wants to sell or donate. We incentivised her by presenting it as redecorating her room and also buying her posters of her choice to decorate and she chose nice baskets for storage etc.

Try to find a team work way that works for everyone. And a middle ground where everyone can relax, feel at home, live how they like to live but with consideration for everyone else.

why didn’t the wheels fall off before kids?

Because. If this is an undiagnosed ADHD mother with her autistic husband and equally ND kids, it is only when hormones dip post kids that all hell literally breaks loose when the usual ways of running your life no longer work, the mask slips and you wonder Ffs I’m losing my marbles and can no longer keep on top of keeping my job and getting the kids to / from school and bed and feeding them as well , let alone not allowing the water bottles to spawn to an army of 30…….

yes. The wheels fall off.

this family needs help and fast. Altho I predict that unless one of the kids is put forward for assessment with CAMHs the family will bumble on until the OP ups, leaves and files for divorce.

good luck OP. Sounds very stressful. Please get a ND trained marriage therapist. Might do wonders for you all.

Indeed @mummymissessunshine . Kids lob a grenade through all the carefully constructed coping strategies that ND women previously had in place, often without really even knowing it. Not only do they add a tonne of stress, pressure and extra work, but they herald hormonal changes, disrupted sleep and the loss of "downtime" in any real sense, which may have been how they were coping previously. I was doing fine until I had DC, it was that and trying to balance WFH during Covid which led to complete burnout for me.

Absolutely this.

I suspect the OP doesn't spend a lot of time trying to get his list accomplished while also properly, attentively parenting the children.

@Stu01 have you been diagnosed yourself with autistic traits?

One thing I noticed was that you said she gets the kids ready alone in the morning and she remembers birthdays and all of that sort of thing. Does she carry all of the mental load around the kids - does she organise the doctors appointments, extra curriculars etc. I ask because in your description you put forward an image of you doing laundry, cleaning and cooking (do you do all the cooking) and your wife and kids causing chaos - it sounds like she is spending all her time with them while you are on your own. You also mentioned that you go off alone when your seven year old upsets you, that is not going to solve anything, is not great for your relationship with your child and leaves your wife to deal with the situation alone. Kids are exhausting, they are messy and they can be difficult around breakfast time. Trying to get a kid to eat breakfast can wear you out and sometimes you find you make their breakfast as you need to speed them up. If both parents work both parents should be on child wrangling duty in the morning or take turns.

Is your wife carrying all of the mental load because that can actually wear you out, particularly if you have adhd. If you have to organise everyone, make sure the kids are dressed and out the door by yourself you are not then going to have the mental space to pick up toys etc… I know you say they should be able to get ready themselves and yes in a perfect world they would; however, I find that kids need to be reminded and herded in the mornings to get out the door - even teenagers! The seven year old should be able to dress himself but there is always a parent there going “put on your shoes, have you eaten breakfast, where’s your bag” etc… it is exhausting having to herd people out the door by - I know I get frazzled by it even when I mind my nephew who is 12! You can’t opt out of helping because they should do it themselves because if your wife did the same they would not make school and then one of you would miss work.

I carry most of the mental load in my relationship, I organise all the appointments and get my kid ready in the morning but my partner makes the lunches, and in the evenings my partner does more bed time stuff etc as I am mentally frazzled - I usually pick up toys, sort laundry or do dishes while he reads bedtime stories as I just need time alone to decompress. That does mean I am doing more tidying than him (he does also likely have adhd) but it also means I get quiet headspace while he minds our kid. I think your wife might find it helpful if you took a more hands on approach in managing the children and then split the chores so you both get some quiet time. If you do a chores audit with your wife and you both write down what you do week to week and include the obvious things like laundry, cooking, cleaning but also the less obvious things like organising dentist appointments, shopping lists, organising kids play dates and activities, bringing kids to activities, organising kids in the mornings and herding them to bed in the evenings. Write absolutely everything down and then ask what the things are that you struggle with the most or you would like help with - for you you would like more help with the tidying, but for her she might need more help with managing the kids. Do a rota for the kids to get them into good habits but then put on your own rotas that you each take turns reminding the kids to do their chores as that can be a job in itself - trying to get kids to tidy can be exhausting and a battle! Do you have good storage solutions btw - I read that kids struggle more with tidying up if you don’t have set places you put things - they need a bit of order and routine. Maybe look at where all the papers and toys should live and if they don’t have a set home take a trip to Ikea! I would also address the tv thing and maybe set a time limit - tell her it is causing you sensory overload and is not good for kids to have more than an hours tv a day. My child is so much harder to deal with and has colossal tantrums when she watches too much tv!

I would potentially look into counselling, individual and couples. I don’t think going off to be alone so much is helping your relationship with your wife or your kids, have you always done this? My dad can only be sociable for a certain amount of time - too much talking, noise or chaos and he then goes quiet and withdraws, he gets completely overloaded - we do think he may have asd. One time I visited and my daughter was running around being chaotic, he suddenly left the room and we didn’t know where he had gone, we found him outside cleaning windows. I know when I am a bit depressed I can withdraw too, withdrawing from family should we really be looked at as it’s not healthy for you or your family, as I think a few people have said communication is important!

One thing to note is that parenting is hard for everyone - kids are messy little chaos monkeys, their brains are still developing so they likely will abandon plates and papers and bags and it is up to us to constantly remind them (and it is constant). Every day I feel I am fighting chaos - you tidy and leave the room to get a cup of tea and come back to markers, legos, bags, plates all over the place that need to be cleared again. Trying to get kids to do it is a battle and you do feel a bit like you are stuck in groundhog day. But a lot of people are in the same boat! Talk to your partner, get counselling and find a new way that works for both of you and the kids! Get some rules and strategies and some good storage solutions!

Are you really advising him to leave her and the kids and to have her do all the work for them? So he can live in a little nice tidy bachelor pad?

Why not? I wouldn't want to live with a husband who lived in that amount of chaos.

Children aren't things you just abandon because the house is messy.

Who said anything about abandoning your children? Such hyperbole. If my husband was as messy and chaotic as this woman is I'd happily divorce and live on my own in peace and happiness - it's a perfectly valid reason for leaving. The children would move between tge 2 homes and would probably be a lot happier with 2 happy parents (one of whom doesn't live like something out of Hoarders). .

You said that. You should reread the comment you were agreeing with

The co-parenting one?

Um no. The bachelor pad one. It's right there in the quote history.

Which was in response to the one about divorcing and co-parenting.

if the genders were reversed, everyone would be screaming LTB, he is a man child who cannot tidy up, so why should he not get the same advice, if the poster was your brother or son or male cousin, what would be be your advice then ?

should the man divorce his wife and co-parent his children, too right he should- why should he have to suffer just because he is a he ? , no one should suffer in silence, so yes he should divorce the messy wife and coparent his children

Fine, but that's not the comment you responded to.

The thing is... His wife is bringing a lot to the table in terms of working full-time and doing most of the effective parenting of their children. I suspect the OP would struggle and the children would suffer if he was suddenly left to do a significant share of the parenting on his own.

Divorce is expensive too. If this really is a case of can't rather than won't, and there is still genuine affection between them, then the money would be much better spent on getting professionals in to work with the family to declutter the house and put more effective systems in place.

This is how I feel!!! I realise my standards are very high though. And husband, by today’s standards, would be diagnosed adhd. He is untidy and late and struggles to tidy/organise.

When my children were younger I managed it by jointly tidying up after tea - stacking the dishwasher and 7pm tidy up of toys etc before bath, setting clothes out for the next day. Bed.

Then I’d ask husband to split making packed lunches and put them in the fridge ready for the next day.

Now (children a bit older) they have their own jobs - unpack dishwasher etc. We also have colour coded glasses, mugs etc (2 each) so it’s clear whose is whose.

It feels incredibly naggy to go from where you are now but I promise it’s worth it!

No, I was responding to the poster who was under the impression that he would leave her and she would have to do everything, apparently misunderstanding what coparenting means. HTH.

They said he would go and live in a bachelor pad. You said "why not?". But whatever, it's not really relevant. I guess you didn't read it properly.