A messy wife and children

[Stu01]

Hello,

This is not a new problem. Every solution I’ve tried has failed and left me feeling more and more powerless.

So to the context - my wife and I are full time professionals who do the exact same job. Our hours are mostly identical. She does an extra half hour or so of work more at home in the evenings than I.

We’ve been together for all of her adult life and most of mine. This is not a new problem.

My wife loves to clean - she genuinely gets a buzz out of it (no idea why) but doesn’t do it- and she is very good at remembering birthdays and clubs and knowing day to day things. She is an excellent mother - phenomenal. We have two children, 10 and 7, and the youngest is a challenge. I find myself ignored and derided by my youngest and my choice is to walk away because otherwise I shall be furious.

My wife has been brought up by two loving parents who did everything for her. Her mother did wish me luck when we moved in together. Ever since I have known her, her life has been filled with clutter and love.

In contrast, I have scraped myself out of several challenging home lives and have lived in pressurised, immaculate homes. I was taught from a young age to clean, tidy, iron and take responsibility for myself. I didn’t lack in love, but I knew my mess should be dealt with.

Our houses have always been full of work and possessions. As the children came into our lives, we declutterred and she stayed at home to cook, clean and raise our children. Here is where it began.

For ten years now, our houses have deteriorated into a constant day to day clutter-fest. Children’s toys, shoes, paperwork, washing, clothes, bags, books and whatever else.

I have handled the laundry, half the ironing, cooking and most of the day to day clean up since the children started school. But as time goes by I’ve seen that she and the children don’t really have the tidiness of the house as a priority. I on the other hand find it hard to manage mentally and practically in a messy and disorganised house.

Laundry I have done can be left unmoved for a week until I snap. Ironing I have done is discarded on the floor and crumpled within days. Toys yearned for are trodden and broken. Meanwhile, the TV is on non-stop, the noise grows and I oscillate in a corner.

I’ve raised my feelings, suggested things and even done everything in a passive aggressive fury. No change. I’ve let the carpets be covered and trampled all over it. No change. I’ve bagged it all up and threatened to throw it away. No change. I’ve bagged some up and actually thrown it away. No change. My current approach is to only pick up whatever I have interacted with and deal with my own washing (excepting school uniform). My wife likes it when I iron her clothes - they are quietly languishing.

Resentment builds, I retreat into myself and find the only clear space to sit down and read. But I can’t concentrate. Our communication has deteriorated and she feels lonely.

She’s lonely mostly in the weekday mornings because I get on and organise myself. She on the other hand cannot find the children’s uniforms (we take responsibility for ironing and storing half each in a designated place) or water bottles (we have about 30), can’t decide what shoes to where (48 pairs), makes their breakfast (both children can do it themselves as we’ve taught them), does her hair and make up, and personally dresses our 7 year old (who refuses to do so) who miraculously can do it themselves on weekends. I just can’t bear to berate or dictate to them anymore - I’m just so fed up and isolated.

So I’m back from the gym at 6.45. She’s dressed by then. I eat breakfast, shower and change, and then I wash up and tidy up and wait. If people can’t find things, I tell them where I saw them last (on the floor). If people aren’t doing anything, I point out what is needed. I teach 10-11 year olds and know what they are capable of. The house descends into a fury of lateness and panic - I am still and seething and my children are dawdling around barefoot.

I fear I am being petty and pedantic. I fear we are babying the children. I fear I am unfeeling and not setting them a good example. I fear my expectations are too great and hers too low. I fear I am not being inclusive. I fear for my marriage. I fear for my sanity.

What do I do next?

I would say…
Toys, clothes, paperwork, washing, clothes, bags,books- this clutter you complain of is all basically essential things. Too many maybe so needing whittling down, but you need a certain amount of it so maybe need a system/storage for where it lives.

You say you do the laundry, but complain of piles of laundry you have done. The job has not been finished then in my book. The job is finished when they go in the wardrobe/drawers. Either do it yourself or enlist someone reliable to help. Piles of clean laundry that make you feel superior but actually add to the clutter and make you feel resentful are not helping.

I think you need to sit down with your wife and discuss both of your top five favourite things about your family life and one thing you would change. Because Gotmann says you need to say at least 5 good things for every negative. Once that one thing is resolved you can repeat the conversation and tackle another. Maybe start with something small that will make a noticeable difference like getting rid of 22 water bottles. But most importantly really listen to her. If she complains about you dont jump in to defend yourself, ask for more detail until you understand where she is coming from then go and reflect on how you can make things better for her.

I’d be really pissed off if my husband went to the gym every morning leaving me to deal with everything. Starting every day with resentment and loneliness can kill a marriage. Make sure you have a fair split of free time and of time with the kids. If she wants to lie in bed with her free time that’s her prerogative. After a few weeks of being allowed that consistently she might feel more like doing something with it.

There is a book called Fair Play, maybe read that and use it to have some discussions, what is her perspective on who is doing the most, what jobs does she prefer or do well at? I think there will be scope for optimisation. Whose responsibility is it to get rid of old clothes, toys, etc, is that on the list for someone, maybe half an hour a week to start with, while the others go out, or half an hour all together if it will work- but not if it won’t. Find what works. Hire a declutterer to work with you if that’s what you need.

But most of all talk to your wife and ask what she needs from you to feel like a team. I’m not saying you’re wrong or it’s your fault or you’re not pulling your weight, I just don’t think she’s happy either, and feeling isolated/lonely in a marriage is awful. Maybe she needs a weekly night out with friends while you blitz the tidying if that’s what does it for you. Something needs to shift but kindly, gently and with respect. Maybe factor some yoga or breathing into your gym sessions- the less stress around, the more you can all co-operate constructively, and stress/relaxation/positivity is contagious so be what you want the mood to be.

This sounds like something my husband would write! Yes you may be the tidier one but do you actually help maintain the tidiness yourself?

Does she do all the school runs, shopping, cooking, washing up, organising clubs, taking care of bills, house maintenance? Or do you do half?

What do you do to help the children get ready? Why do you go to the gym during this time?

Maintaining a tidy house is a lot of work and needs effort from you too. Just wanted to check you do actually out that effort in!

Why not switch, you tidy up and find a place for everything and she cleans?

After several years together, someone is not going to change their style so either you live with it and find a way round it or you decide you can't tolerate it and you split up.

My cleaner is more a housekeeper in terms of dealing with clutter. I went through quite a few who just expected clean surfaces but my issue was growing in 'stuff'! She's helped me so much. Perhaps you need similar

12 pairs of shoes isn't a lot for an adult.

DS plays very elaborate games, and his room gets messy very, very quickly. I‘ve had to teach him to tidy. We do it together and I give him a category to put away. Each category has its own box. Although he still won’t start the process on his own, he will now put a category fully away and start on new categories himself. I tend to pick something for him which would have the biggest impact most quickly (usually building blocks) so he sees that a mess is not as overwhelming as he may think.

I use the opportunity to remove rubbish from the room (toilet roll inners/ cardboard houses etc).

I don’t think he‘ll ever be naturally tidy (I‘m not), but he’s now able to tidy his mess. He’s 8.

I‘ve kept storage easy to use for him - usually it’s a dedicated box he can throw things in.

You sound unbelievably passive to me. Why is it not your responsibility?! If I did nothing then my house would end up with yours within a week. Yes, it feels like a battle to keep on top of everything and put everything away, but I see that as part of my parenting job tbh.

You seem surprised your 7yo can get ready at the weekend but not for school. That’s so common as to be cliché, surely?

You seem to be spending a lot of time standing around seething? Can you not spend this time actually helping?

Have a massive declutter as well, and unplug the tv and lose the remote.

1. Accept that you are the one who has the best executive function and this is the area you’ll need to lead.
2. Screen everyone for adhd.
3. Stop ironing most things.
4. Do a giant declutter. Get your wife and kids to watch the TV shows from Marie Kondo and the show Sort out your life to help with messaging.
5. Join the Mn decluttering thread in the Housekeeping section for moral support.
6. All do the declutter which you lead and encourage.
7. Then make systems for parts of your day. If bags get dumped, get a box or trunk, put a big icon and label on it that says BAGS. It cannot take more than 1 second to access, or it won’t be used.
8. Repeat all over the house.
9. see if you can put daily chores onto a gamified app for the novelty seeking brains in the family.
10. Each choose 1 favourite song and then clean for the duration of these songs only.
11. Realise you will have to do this yearly as the stuff will mount and systems will wane, and talk to you wife about how this major contribution to household harmony will be recognised.

It’s not helpful to belittle the issues ADHD causes. It is a disability. It’s not laziness.

I would be furious if dh sloped off to the gym every morning leaving me to deal with getting dc up and ready for school.
Agree with pp that if you are going to do the ironing, finish the job by putting it away. Why wouldn't you?
You aren't co parenting, you are counterparenting. When you do that you end up with confused children and .unrealistic expectations all round.
Sitting reading your book while your wife is struggling is selfish. It would be sensible to help her, then read your book when everything done and dc in bed.
Have you got adequate, organised storage for clothes, toys, school stuff? It makes life much easier if you have.

There is this.

OP, it does sound as if you're happy to do your individual chores in isolation, but you want your wife to take on the "management" burden of making sure the household as a whole - jobs, kids, chores - runs smoothly, i.e. that the whole picture runs smoothly together. And you have quite high standards and you want things done to your standard, but you don't want to be the one ultimately making this happen.

If this is the case, you're expecting someone who, by the sounds of it, has problems with executive function to take on the strategic/planning (i.e. "executive") role within your household, and make sure everything within the household is executed to your high standards, ensuring a clean and orderly house.

And btw this isn't someone who is at home all day. This is someone who works full-time and is probably already quite challenged by having to manage the demands of her job to a reasonable standard. And then puts a "second shift" in with your kids, where I suspect you do much less. And then she lets everything go at home because the pressures elsewhere are too much - after job and kids, there isn't much left.

It isn't laziness which is the issue here, I suspect. It's overwhelm and lack of focus/hyperfocus on certain things. You mention that your wife likes cleaning and can go off on a project that interests her at that time (i.e. making soup) and work on it for hours at a time.

And yet this is the person you expect to put calm and efficient routines in place (and more crucially, keep them up!) to ensure the house is tidy and immaculate to your standards! If you mentally make her responsible for this, while absolving yourself of responsibility, you're setting her up to fail.

You need to be realistic about what you can both achieve and take joint responsibility with your wife for setting up systems that work for your family. Play to each others' strengths. Sit down together and write down the things you want to achieve, and then work on them together. Get clutter boxes, put all the junk from around your house in them, and then sit down at the kitchen table and start clearing out/organising together in small, manageable chunks.

The one thing I found really unreasonable from your posts was this - your children are late to school and don't have what they need, and yet you've been to the gym and showered that morning. You are jointly responsible as a parent with your wife for getting the kids to school on time with the stuff they need. I'm not against parents taking turns to take time out for themselves, but if this isn't happening, you shouldn't be gymming, you should be helping out at home. Because kids come first.

So - I’m the messy one ( ADHD) . I am
married to a pretty tidy guy. My kids are 13 and 10 and do some simple chores that they can manage eg empty the recycling for the 10 year old , empty the dish washer for the 13 year old. DS 13 is average but quite messy , DS 10 is a whirlwind like me but also likes to be organised.

DH does most of the housework but I do the mental lead forms, school
parties play dates dentist etc.

we have lowered our standards - minimum
ironing . We have reduced numbers of home clothes but duplicate key kit eg sports kit.
We have zoned the house.
DH has one room a study to be really tidy in and our living room is kept a calm space to relax in . My clothes are messy . DS aged 10 has a bedroom covered with toys which we ignore. The playroom is periodically tidied so that it is tolerable for DS aged 13 to spend time in.

We try to be organised with bags packed by the door, a place for shoes and school uniform.

I think you need to compromise and perhaps have a few zones that you are each allowed to have as you like

I’m not saying that decluttering doesn’t make a massive difference, but advising the judgemental, angry, passive aggressive parent to throw away their partner and children’s possessions is not going to end well for this family.

@Stu01 Have a listen to this guy I’ve found his tips absolutely fantastic with my challenging dc. And he’s a very helpful voice when it comes to changing generational patterns.

I agree @Deliveroo. Decluttering needs to be done in a positive, calm way as a family with rewards at the end of it and constant praise and affirmation along the way. Recognise it as an effort and an achievement, as much as any other achievement in the family.

Sounds really hard.

Only ideas that come to mind for me are;

• it won't be forever, when the kids are older and more independent they don't make as much mess; even just past the age of playing downstairs which won't be long.

• can you carve out a space in the home that is solely your space which is clean and tidy and you can escape to?

• speak to her again about the minimum, it doesn't have to be perfect but has to be good enough to not impact on your mental health. Agree what that is.

But honestly as the kids get older and spend more time in their rooms the communal areas won't suffer as much

I think reframe. If it drives you mad, you be the one to tidy up. No one else cares about the mess. Stop trying to change them, you can't change other people. Either take on the role of the tidy organised one and do it yourself. Either that or move out.

I would start by creating a 'landing station' for the kid's school stuff, something easy for the little ones to understand, like the kallax shelving. Everyone has a box with their name on to put in their water bottle, homework, school bag etc. Box up and store/throw away anything unnecessary (keep out one pair of school shoes, coat, water bottle etc per kid). Train the kids to put everything away as soon as they get in from school, acknowledge and praise them when they remember to do it until it becomes a habit.

Hopefully when the mornings start to run more smoothly, your family will start to see the benefits of having systems and organisation in place. I would also use Christmas as an incentive to sort through the toys and donate some to charity. If there's a time at the weekend when you're kids are at activities can you agree to work on decluttering the house with your wife? Try to do a weekly charity/tip run and agree to no more stuff coming into the house until you've had a clear out.

I sympathise (I’m the tidy one, my brilliant do has severe adhd) but I think there’s something missing:
you both work full time (she has a slightly larger workload as there’s an extra bit she needs to do in the evening)
yku say you both share house chores
BUT
you go the gym early morning and yiur wife doesnt.
youre expecting parenting / child managing / house managing to be well underway when you get back from the gym.
one of the suggested ideas by your wife was that she be house/child managing the WHOLE time youre out at the gym. (This didn’t happen often)

so - if you go the gym daily and think it should all be happening without you, what’s the equivalent daily piece of time she checks out of family life and you take care of a time of extreme stress and busy-ness?
Note: daily.
or - is it not really shared and yku think it should all happen for you because you are the man?

dovetailing pick ups and clubs doesnt count. I’m asking if there is a daily time she gets to totally check out while parenting is full on

Declutter (properly), get a good cleaner and have a chat to your wife about her potential ADHD.

It might also be useful to not prioritise going to the gym in the mornings. Its a busy time of day with children those ages, perhaps it would help everyone for you to help then.

God it sounds awful OP. In the short term I suggest you leave off the gym for a bit and take over the morning routine. Stop ironing. Medium term, cut down the DC clubs/activities drastically so they have the time to learn to be functional. Good luck

I have the same problem with my DH, his clutter is taking over the house but if I offer to sort any of it or want to move anything he's always about to do it, then doesn't. Or he's doing something else (he's sitting down) but will do it later, or I'm nagging. I'm not allowed to touch anything faintly 'his', he can never find anything because of the junk, but it must always have been 'someone' moved it! I've given up completely with some rooms.

It only gets worse.

This

I am like this and I can tell you that you leaving things to get worse or having words in the issue won’t make an iota of difference.

If anything it is likely to make her double down on her actions

If you can afford it maybe getting someone in to help would be beneficial?
A cleaner wouldn’t tidy though so maybe more of a housekeeper. When my children were small I worked in a household that was similar and really enjoyed organising the chaos.
By not helping, you’ll be resented by your wife and children, by them disregarding how you like to live and your efforts you’ll slowly hate being there.
You aren’t in the same page at all, and by stopping communicating, you’ll never get back on it. I feel for you, my DH likes things orderly, clean and tidy and our household is not as he would like it a lot of the time because it’s chaos. It is however clean enough that no one bats an eyelid when they come to visit and everyone can find what they need/washing away. Perhaps like us you can find a middle ground, but that will only happen if you both talk honestly and listen to each other. If you can’t do this at home then I would book in for some counselling sessions together.
Your household does sound extremely chaotic and I think most people would struggle in it.

@Stu01 What do you think about the suggestions being given?
For your own sanity and to save the marriage, please consider them.
At times, many of us who’ve lived with someone like your wife have felt like chewing gravel stones.
Take heart.

Set aside one day of the weekend every week to declutter and to set up a new storage plan for each room.
It might take the whole year. Start with the smallest rooms.

Don't bring anything out of your car unless it goes into - a bin, a washing basket, a fridge or pantry shelf or where your kids store their school bags. Have the children assist.

Clean up from every meal.
Eat only at the table.
Send the kids out to play ball in the garden more.
Kids don't get out more toys before packing up other toys.
Ask children to immediately put away their clean clothes.
Find things for school the night before.
No screens on before toys are picked up and clothes are put away.

For every new toy or book that doesn't fit in a shelf, take an older toy to the Op.shop.

It's mostly the kids.
Your children need to co-operate and pickup after themselves.
Offer a reward system. Think up what would work.