Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

I really admire you @FourAndFive . You won’t tolerate bullshit, your boundaries are in place and you’re holding him to them, but you’re willing to put in the effort and see what the outcome is. I hope you feel empowered. (And bollocks to all those posters who demanded you do things to their timescales, etc!)

It is a shame that often when someone is told how their behaviour has affected their significant other, that their primary concern is to insist they’ve not done anything wrong. Defend, at all costs. Are people so precious that they cannot tolerate any whiff of wrongdoing, any criticism (no matter how justified). As the MC keeps reiterating, it’s irrelevant what HE thinks of his actions (I think we’re all fairly clear there!). What matters is how his actions have made you feel and what YOU think of his actions. Really he needs to stop minimising his behaviour and own it. I really hope he has an epiphany at some point, before your patience wears out.

I agree. All that matters in any interpersonal interaction is the impact on the recipient. They get to call it as they felt it - whatever the ‘intention’ of the other. We should all be conscious of how our words, actions, tone etc impact others and if they feed back that it had a negative impact and that was not what we intended then we should be humble to accept that and adapt our behaviours. Not double down in a grandiose way insisting you are ‘right’ regardless of the negative impact on the other, if your priority is to cherish and nurture the relationship between you.

DH thinks his role in MC is to clarify and justify that was nothing

I think after this long and being challenged in counseling but holding onto he's done nothing, there's no progress in his mindset.

He threatened suicide if you didn't agree to his going on a trip with her.

How does he justify that as he's done nothing? He doesn't get it at all. He's thus at risk for doing this again.

I too think she's done with him and now that Xmas is coming and EAP done with him, he wants to be back in the home.

I think of you go away with him you'll let him come back and never really know if you're just the backup or not. Your husband hasn't given you core deep honesty because it interferes with his picture of himself. If you have a problem reflecting back what he wants to see, you'll have more issues like this. He doesn't get that he broke the mirror.

I definitely think you could do with a break, preferable with a friend, sister, or on your own.

Not with him. He still doesn't get it.

You sound very calm and balanced, which is so good.

I agree with PPs about him 'not getting it' and seeing Christmas as a chance for emotional blackmail and the imperative to 'look normal and happy' to the outside world (for him). Also agree that going away would be great but not with him.

One thing that stands out is how great your counsellor is. It's such a game of chance to find a good one and I love how they are holding the line for you.

I meant to add that his stance on ‘but I bring her tea in bed’ reminds me of husbands in 1970s sitcoms where the tiniest courtesy towards a wife is seen as heroism and underlines their hugely transactional view of marriage.

I read an article once that was about an unfaithful husband thinking that ‘becoming the King of Good Deeds’ was enough. He learned that it wasn’t, and what his wife needed was for him to be fully accountable for what he did and understand fully why it hurt her so much.
It seems your husband in MC is doing a bit of this, as if it ‘pays’ for what he did to you.
“Look what a good husband I am! Now if you just concentrate on that and I don’t have to face up to the reality of what I did and thus I get to avoid accountability and guilt, that would be just great, thanks!”
It’s ok your counsellor saying that you don’t see it like that, but they need to stop letting him reply like that and follow through with asking him if he really knows exactly what he did, and understands the impact on you, and ask him does he genuinely not think he did anything wrong?
He needs to see that he could achieve world peace and shower you with Elizabeth Taylor’s diamonds, but it wouldn’t square this with you, because it’s not what you need.
That’s the missing bit here, for him to not be allowed further justifications in MC and ask if he really understands exactly why and what the hell you are both doing there in the first place.
He seems to see it as a session where he’s always just fielding the ball coming at him, but never put in to bat. He just defends and justifies and needs really challenging on his understanding of what he did and what he thinks would help you through that.
Too many men think MC is just about getting their butts kicked for marital laziness and that doing more DIY, going on more date nights or buying more flowers will solve everything and anything.
Him just being nice and avoiding the real issue is like giving an elephant a piano. It’s a nice, generous gift and all that, but the elephant doesn’t even have fingers. It’s great, but just not what they need.

Re the trip away, I think it might be a good idea. My friend did this with her husband, she chucked him out and they ‘dated’ and eventually on weekends away during a period of just over six months. It gave them some mutual nice times which you need alongside the tough and difficult stuff, if you still want to reconnect at all. If all you do is hammer away at the bad things, if that’s the only reason for contact you have, it becomes all there is and there is no new good stuff to counterbalance the tough stuff. This isn’t rug sweeping or forgetting what he did, it goes alongside the difficult stuff and whilst it won’t mend the issue you are working on, it helps fix the marriage so that when he finally manages to “get it” with what he did, the marriage is in better shape to return to, if that’s what you both want. If you’re not ready to go away together yet, that’s fine. It took my friend a while to feel comfortable with doing that.
I get it that you want the reasons for him to want to come back to be because he wants you and the marriage, I was exactly the same as you.
If he’s being cynical the mask will slip, you know him well enough and know what his love and commitment look like, you’d recognise a fake version.
Everything on your timeline and he doesn’t get to his former status with you until the penny drops.

Where is he living? Is he doing right by the DC in terms of time with and supporting them?

Has your H acknowledged the awful manipulation of the suicide threat? That he would rather not exist than give up his friend and hobby?

This is exactly what ran through my mind - specifically Terry & June …. attempting to position a single simple minor task vs all the multiple massive problems wrestled by the wife daily as some sort of heroic act.

@FourAndFive you have a beautiful way with words, positioning them in a manner that makes my soul sing.

Ha, I do love your analogies!

It’s good to hear from you, and that you feel progress is being made.

I quoted the above because I wondered if the issue of the hobby itself has been discussed, given you have suggested his obsessive need for it was an issue in itself. It seems unlikely that without seriously looking at it he’ll do anything other than fall back into a similar pattern to before.

The fact he will continue to see her through it is really problematic I think. If it had been for example an emotional affair in the workplace, it’s almost certain a transfer or change of job would have been expected as part of moving forward. It’s entirely reasonable for you to expect absolutely no contact whatsoever from now on. If he’s serious about wanting to repair this then giving up the hobby should be something he is prepared to do. It’s a sacrifice, but one he should make . It may be one that will benefit your relationship, and his with the DC over and above the specific issue around her.

If you don’t feel you can ask him that it’s worth considering why not? You are still sounding marvellously in control. That’s not a bad thing but I hope you allow yourself to both feel the rage you’re entitled to to and let him feel it too.

I also want to ask if his threatening Sui@ide if he wasn’t allowed to continue his relationship with the hobby partner has been raised, fully explored and resolved in MC?

Because either he had (or has) sui@idal ideation without any medical intervention and this leaves him very vulnerable to a potential future catastrophic outcome without appropriate medical treatment.

Or this was a manipulation and a domination move by him which is a very serious emotionally violent action to inflict on to you and your children. If the case this needs to be flushed out so he recognises that this is serious abuse and the significant impact it had on you all.

This thread never ceases to amaze me. Just when I think I've got it square in my mind, I am reminded that I am bending again You lot are INCREDIBLE.

He absolutely shouldn't have anything to do with her, AT ALL, I know that - but I'm "allowing" him to be civil (I hate these terms!), because I know he will really, really struggle to completely ignore. He is the most likeable, friendly man. Truly. So it's my way of protecting who he is, who I love.

WHY AM I LIKE THIS?! I have so much to work out, and sort out. Why do I feel I have to give him grace, even at the expense of myself? Fear, isn't it? I've never had to set hard boundaries in my marriage, it feels alien still. We've always just lived, compromised, worked together. I'm still trying to do that, I guess.

So much to process again and I'll do my best to reply - there are so many excellent points to come back to.

I'm exhausted again. I'm sad again. I'm furious again.

I'm very close to the fuck it, I'm out button again.

We've always just lived, compromised, worked together. I'm still trying to do that, I guess.

Is that actually true? It seems YOUR approach has been “lived, compromised and worked together” - has he actually done anything like this consistently?

His lifestyle from the snippets shared here seem very individualistic and self serving - not collaborative or compromising at all - so much so that he threatens to take his own life and implode your children’s lives forever to get what he wants.

OP, the thing here to realise is that he is not who you think he is.
He is a highly selfish man that believes he was entitled to this friendship and his go to was to threaten suicide when you said no after months of stress, that have caused unknown damage to your children.

But you need to realise is that YOU don't have boundaries either, or very very weak ones.
You continue to put him first emotionally.

He's gotten away with murder your entire marriage and still is, because you constantly bend.

I know you are struggling and I really feel for you.
But the damage this has and is doing to your children is just so awful.

They will look back at this period of time, as adults, and it will be when their selfish sleazy father blew up the family.

They love you and are hurting for you.
The fact they are happy he is gone should be YOUR centre of being.
Not him.

He's a selfish covert narcissist that is completely preoccupied by himself and his shallow vacuous infatuation.

I think you need to focus on your children and not him.

I'm exhausted again. I'm sad again. I'm furious again.

That’s to be expected given what you have endured. Please concentrate solely on your own physical, mental and emotional replenishment for the next few months, otherwise you will totally burn out and be of zero support to your DCs as your household collapses.

This is the aeroplane oxygen mask analogy in action. Clear your mind of fixing him and your marriage in the short term and deploy loads of self care to restore yourself. No one can hope to make sustainable life changing decisions in this emotional and physical state. Best of luck. Start today.

Excellent insight's@Keyhooks

I think you “bend” because deep down you adore this man ( or who he was). I am sorry this thread has such an emotional impact on you. I feel you really do deserve happiness. A few months ago my partner and I had a wobble and he made a very clear promise he would never hurt me like that again. He was so sorry. I wish your partner would do something like this off his own back. It hasn’t been a reflex for him to do this so far and the longer it goes on, if he finally says sorry it will mean less and feel less authentic.

@Madchest and others, yes we had discussed it, albeit briefly, over a couple of sessions. The counsellor felt it came from a moment of intense emotion - the stress of losing the hobby (that's what DH thought I was saying), how much he cared for her and this big hobby event at the time, and the fear of everything falling apart.

It wasn’t seen as a long-term intention, just an impulsive reaction in a very heightened moment.

I agree with you, though, and I'm not over that yet.

I'm reminded of something else I don't agree with during our sessions - I say the hobby is an obsession, he is obsessed with it - the MC will remind me to use the word passionate instead. I wholeheartedly disagree.

I say the hobby is an obsession, he is obsessed with it
I agree with you.
- the MC will remind me to use the word passionate instead. I wholeheartedly disagree.
There's a difference between passion and obsession. Hence the suicide threat.

Why is it you that has to do all this compromising
Why is it that you are the unimportant person in the marriage
It's all about him
and it appears it always has been

what about you

and your children...

Yes, I also think the suicide threat has been largely overlooked.

If he wasn't serious, then it was an absolutely heinously manipulative and abusive thing to do.

In fact, threatening suicide is THE go-to of abusive men. This 2022 study concludes "the use of violence and suicidal behaviour was also a deliberate and calculated response by which some men sought to maintain influence or control over women."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9566.13476

As someone who was terrorised by someone threatening suicide to get what they wanted from me, I wouldn't be able to get past this. This would HAVE to be a central topic of discussion.