Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

I'd struggle to get past the suicide threat I'm afraid.

All the sorries in the world could never change that.

@Thewookiemustgo you have again articulated it perfectly. I needed to see him do something that made me the priority, not him. Giving up the affair was easy, he was in the process of doing it anyway, it wasn’t enough.

It's the 'she's not around anymore' trap. That isn't good enough for me.

I wont waiver. He knows where the goalposts are. (I might do a diagram though and send it to him, and print to pin on the fridge, just to be the helpful supportive wife I am.)

OP, I think you’ve handled this whole sorry business remarkably well. How much do your children know? If you’re planning to pin something on the fridge (or anywhere where they’re likely to see it), does it need to be tailored accordingly?

I think you really and truely need to make sure she isn’t around anymore, need to ensure they haven’t taken it underground. I don’t know how you can check that though.

It's not about her (and never really was). It's about him prioritising the hobby / work / something else. You got this OP.

They have both been aware since the start - we had an 'in joke' in the beginning before it went rapidly down hill as more and more was uncovered.

We've kept both of them out of it over the last few weeks as best we could - I know they were enjoying the peace and not hearing her name.

I wont be pinning anything on the fridge, that was my attempt at being lighthearted. I'll keep them out of the dark as best I can if we move forward, they are excellent kids and I owe it to them, the support from them has been unwavering.

Doing the bins without asking sort of support that is heartbreakingly priceless.

OP, do you have a timeline you're working to? Is he asking to come home?

Guilt is for when you've done something wrong. Holding your husband accountable for having an EA is what he should be feeling guilty over. Not you. You're also beyond fed up with his bullshit and the fog you've had when you look at him is lifting a bit.

He felt the shift in you and he "apologized" by repeating his side of the EA, that's why you're not relieved. That was just him restating his position that he did nothing wrong with an added he'll never see her again, even though a few days ago he wanted you to go to his event and be in the same room while he was friendly with her.

You still can't trust him. He's made too many instant course changes here and it seems like he's throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. And it's still all about him. He's monstrously selfish.

I love the diagram idea. 😂 In the beginning I wasn’t quite at the diagram stage. Writing obscenities on the new chinos and shirt he’d worn at the hotel, cutting them up and pouring leftover curry over the pieces in the bin said more than any diagram ever could. He’s never asked where his very, very expensive leather overnight bag he’d taken with him went either. I bloody bought him that as a present, but it proved to be excellent anger management therapy for me instead. I never enjoyed seeing the bins being emptied and watching the lorry drive off so much in my life.

OP, did he go to the hobby this weekend and see her? Or did he skip it because he knew it would bother you? He should have been willing to say nope, I am not going and actually taking action to show her I am changing. I am showing her I hear her finally and need to fix this and make my family my priority. I am afraid though that if he went then you know he hasn't changed a bit. It is just words. You can say anything to anyone and it doesn't mean it is true. I can tell anyone I love them but it would be lies. The actions of a person and how they make you feel are what is real. His words mean nothing and his actions this far have been nothing. He sounds immensely manipulative. I wonder if you don't realize because you are so hurt but he seems to be playing a massive game with you. Please be wary OP. You are worth so much more than him.

No. I only realised the other day that Christmas is just around the corner.

He hasn't asked, but of course he wants to.

Oh gosh, he's insufferable. I don't know how you're still speaking to him, OP.

It's still all about him (and it sounds like it always has been). You are so right to not want the conclusion to be about 'it's naturally come to an end'. Because you deserve better.

He is such a fool. Stay strong.

he very sincerely said that he will absolutely never be in touch with her again, he was so very sorry about everything. He really, genuinely thought that him giving me space (note the 'him giving me' space and not me asking him to leave - I put that straight), and proving that he doesn't actually care about her 'like that', I would eventually be okay. He thought the therapy would help me see that it was innocent, he wasn't a bad person - but it hasn't, and he's now accepted that. He thought that some boundaries would help - but can see why it wont. That I would miss him.

This is just how he's been excusing himself all along with a side of DARVO. He's putting this on you and trying to make his EA feel like your fault that you got it all wrong.

He's tapdancing around you. This isn't a breakthrough. He doesn't see that what he did was wrong but he'll, cue dramatic pause, never see her again.

I wonder if his friend has asked him when he's leaving. Yes, I'm cynical but he just doesn't come off as having got the least sense that he was in the wrong here. That's just not acceptable with a long and hidden EA.

@FourAndFive "I also feel guilty because I know he'll be sad."

I really doubt that he feels even the slightest smidgin of guilt - or sadness - for the pain and fear and mental turmoil he's put you through. If he did, you'd know it. You certainly wouldn't still be sensing his "indifference".

Also, you think he will be "sad" that you're putting down boundaries to protect your mental and emotional self from his selfishness and self-absorption. I think you're projecting your kind and decent self on him.

Maybe it will help you to get some distance and clarity if you realise that what you think is "sadness" in him is really him being a very self-entitled hubristic man who is sulkily peeved at having his wants thwarted.

Hi OP...

What springs out to me is that after all off this he finally said "OK, I'll cut all contact."
It made me think What? What was he doing there then if he still hadn't cut all contact yet... and why did he finally say that when he saw that you were sick to death of the situation and not willing to go over the same ground anymore. Was he still stubbornly holding on to the fact that if he was persuasive enough then he could still have his cake and eat it? And if it was that easy... why had this never occurred to him as an essential step to make to end the impasse before? What made him dig his heels in, move out (as a favour to you, naturally) to defend this point and continue to try to force you to accept an unsustainable situation. His mind certainly works in mysterious ways.

He came to talk and on hearing what you had to say commented, "You've gone backwards." (ie... you are not putting up with this and are not behaving the way I want you to) I'm glad you said your piece.It needed saying! I think it finally puts you both on a more equal footing.

However, His comment reads like he mistook tolerance and patience and your attempts to save the marriage as mailability and thought he was in a position of strength to argue his case and have it both ways.

Also. You could only be feeling guilty about asking him to give up the friendship if he had made you feel that way. Even if he didn't directly say it. The self entitled cheek of him after the turmoil he has caused.

Ask yourself why you should feel guilty about any of this? He appears to have no self awareness at all. And not much awareness of the impact of the situation which was entirely of his making. Has he expressed feeling any guilt at all?

You have been rational, patient and kind, whilst under enormous stress, putting your DC first and tried your best to work your way through this storm and to salvage what could be salvaged. Your DC will appreciate that.

He sounds so patronizing as if he quite openly thinks this is all your silly problem. He has wounded you to the core, yet his core remains intact. This is going to make it harder if you do go forward together.

This man has not changed. He is still spinning his own narratives until he drives you crazy. He simply is not capable of giving love, but loving only himself. I have seen a man like that

This man, like so many, has had it all, unfortunately enabled by OP although unwittingly. It happens in relationships.

As a result he's completely stunned by OP reaction (yes he's that self obsessed)

If the story was reversed would he have been so patient and understanding of a hobby and relationship with another person that taking your own life was better than ending a hobby/relationship? Imagine OP retaliated with she'd do same if he didn't end it? Stalemate. Yet he ventured into those realms without a thought for his DC. That's the most despicable for me

I would think OP doesn't even recognise this man as familiar right now.

For many unforgivable. For OP it's for her to decide.

I wish you strength and comfort regardless of your decision x

OP..
DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM!!!!!
If I could tell chump ladies this!.
He is not your friend.
He is doing the most to negate you
He will tell you the sky is blue and its not.
Please OP see this.
He was not your friend when he left your home, willing, without a shite about you or your children.
Please see him.

Its not real life

It sounds like he is one of those grim re-enactors, or whatever grandiose title they have come up with to elevate what is essentially dressing up and playing make-believe. You said he was upset at the OW’s distance and very happy it ‘resolves’ his family situation. I do understand that but it sounds pretty contradictory. It’s like you and the kids are the consolation prize sober chooses to be happy with that instead.

I’ve just read all your recent updates and what with what happens last night your husband sounds increasingly as delusional as Prince Andrew. In perpetual denial of the damage he has caused, refuses to take any responsibility for his central role in the fallout. He doesn’t give a shit how his actions have and are affecting others, particularly the ones he’s supposed to care the most about, and thinks a hollow show of remorse is enough to restore him to everyone’s good graces so he can carry on as if nothing happened. He needs a severe reality check.

Hope you are okay OP, what an absolute mind fuck he has put you through x
It's all a bit, Four And Five has made life very difficult for me so I need to placate her, tell her what I think she needs to hear, and get her back on side so I can carry on.

What the bloody hell is this fricking hobby that he would rather kill himself than give up!!!!

I just cannot get over any sane rational man saying this.. He would rather kill himself than give up a HOBBY!! and the woman that goes along with that hobby!

Are you absolutely sure he has not just realised, albeit a bit late, that he has to just placate you and tell you what you want to hear?

@FourAndFivei’m applauding you grace and level headedness in all the misery he caused. I feel an uncomfortable pang of familiarity in your updates.

My ex-husbands affair started as an emotional one. same level of ‘innocent friendship’ - same as yours, it was and is imperative for him to be seen as A Nice Guy and also to see himself as such. This does one thing: it does not allow for accountability on his part. As long as he convinces himself of him being A Nice Guy, any wrongdoing on his side is not something his consciousness can allow to be true.

Like you, it took me a while to accept the obvious and file for divorce. in my case his affair had been physical by this point. my cognitive dissonance was too strong - the man that i loved for 25 year could not be the same man who had an affair. impossible. not who he is AT ALL. like you, our past felt like a good marriage. fun, adventurous, people called it couple goals.

I now have distance, and I see things only time, therapy and a lot of self education in psychology could open my eyes to. I know you have to walk your own walk in your own time. but these facts might help you to short cut or redirect:

1. you can not hide an emotional affair without gaslighting. gaslighting is recognised as abuse in the the medical DSM, he did that to you
2. you can not gaslight your partner for more than a year without the ability to switch of empathy for this person completely. he did that to you
3. Gaslighting to that degree requires you to refute reality. doing so is doing mental and physical harm to you as a human being. the receipt comes later in from of mental health struggles and autoimmune diseases. you might decide you are strong enough to be in a relationship with a gaslighter, but your body will not play ball, the receipts will come.
4. he was content with you hurting. He expected you to get over that hurt for his happiness / eat cake sake.
5. his behaviour is likely not a one off. if you should divorce, after 1 or 2 years of reflection, you will find that he displayed selfish behaviours before, but the good times of the marriage masked them so effectively, you didn’t see them. it took me over a year to realise that.
6. His level of assumed privilege and importance is not out of the blue, untypical or ‘not who he is’ it is exactly who he is. his mask has slipped.
7. you feel like you are married to a stranger. you are. there was always this side to him. he knows its ugly, so he hid it.

I know how you feel: no, thats not me, thats not US. Thats how I felt when I received the wonderful advice on MN. It took me month to work through the reality of what he had done to me. I still do, nearly 2 years after discovering the truth. All I can say, you only have this life. being lied to, gaslit and confused by the person in your home will damage you. it is not a matter of how strong you are.

I think you were somewhat unlucky the OW stopped at this point in time, it didn’t truly test him. it makes it all too easy for him.

I wish you the very best, I hope you will find the path that will set you free.
xx

Do not discuss a timeline with him, because a timeline has a finite ending i.e. forgiveness and a return to the status quo.

There must be no more status quo. This is an opportunity for a hard reset on your partnership going forward.

I think you love him very much and there have been a lot of good times for you as a couple and a family and I think you can make it as a couple again, provided he genuinely comes to realise your value and you find a way to do stuff together to fill the hobby void. I would definitely let him experience a "ghost of Christmas future" and keep him out if the house so he can see what he is missing.

Transparency is very, very important - I need the details.

Do you think you'll ever be able to trust his version of events after he hid a relationship for a year? Or will you always hear the narrative he's twisted in his own mind to fit with him being entitled to have a 'friend' and you being 'unreasonable'?

Does the thread agrees he was never really the man he portrayed himself to be? This is important to me to understand for reasons I have not related with the thread