Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

@FourAndFive

Forgive me if I've missed this but in an early update you mentioned that neither you or He had disclosed in therapy his threat of suicide. Have you now disclosed this threat in therapy and how was that perceived by all?

There's something seriously wrong if he thinks his threat of suicide was normal.

I do sense a shift in you now.

I've never been one for ultimatums. That said I believe you are at the point of a yes or no answer scenario as laid out above and indeed posed by yourself.

You are both living in Limbo, the only difference is he likes it. It suits him.

I'm so sorry he has done this to you. This too shall pass x

If the old marriage is over and you know that in the new one he will sulk and be full of self-pity, which won’t work for you and wouldn’t work for anyone, then you know what you have to do. The only hope would lie in him realising what he’s losing and reacting to a real catalyst for change, but I’m not sure you’d ever trust that anyway any more.
I’m genuinely so very sorry, he really is being an absolute idiot.

I am getting angry now at this idiot. So nothing has changed in him, right? He is excited to go to the event and she might be there. It is again about her, despite him being told that she is a No

The truth is, he should know it's a "NO" and what's at stake if it's not.

From what OP has shown of herself, which is exemplary strength and integrity, to say the least, she will not accept this shadow of a man he has become, the one she once knew, loved and trusted back. He simply doesn't exist in her eyes anymore.

He's destroyed the heart of their home, all that he should cherish, nurture and protect at all cost and it would seem not prepared to alter this path he is on.

More fool him. He'll regret this for the rest of his days.

I think this nails it.
He's a superstar in his own life with the hobby, the OW just enabled and fostered his ego.
OP and his family don't get a look in.

I bet he’s got another phone or a secret email address. No way is his not carrying on with her, that’s why he is being so calm OP.

He doesnt need a secret phone or email, they are not in the same house.

I think perhaps you are now at the stage where you just say to him I'm afraid you still are not taking responsibility for your actions or for how much you have hurt me. Then go quiet on him. Do you still care if he comes back or are you ready to move on. It's time to consider if you want a relationship with anyone else and what your life will be like when he is no longer in it.

Yeah, he has a major case of Main Character Syndrome. He's the protagonist of his heroic story and OP is either the supporting cast - when she's being "good" (AKA self-sacrificing blindly devoted coddler of man baby's every tiny want) - or the obstacle the hero must valiantly overcome - when she's being "bad" (AKA not agreeing with him having an emotional affair and prioritising his AP over OP and the marriage).

And OP, I know you think the emotional affair hasn't progressed to sex. Maybe you've got access to real (not doctored) communications between him and AP, so you know this for sure.

But I've been reading infidelity sites for decades (my father was a serial cheater who did untold harm), and there's a few things that scream "the affair has been taken underground". The biggest is that there is a sudden change in behaviour in both cheaters. Here we have such a suspiciously sudden change - she is being apparently distant with him, and he's claiming she's not that great anymore.

Hmmmm. This is a very classical tactic that is intended to throw the BS off the scent, because the BS is getting in the way of the cheaters eating their cake.

And you are still unable to break through his bullish self-delusion and limerence despite support from the MC, him being removed from the house, and your repeated conversations with him about the affair. That sounds like his self-delusion is being fed by AP - quietly, underground.

I didn’t water requote the whole post but I agree entirely with @LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta

i am worried @FourAndFive as you genuinely seem to believe that contact has cooled down. Do not trust him anymore.

@LifeSurvior and @Allthegoodonesareg0ne absolutely.
I think this is what many, if not all, affairs/ obsessions are about. Suddenly somebody or a situation propels you to ‘stardom’ in your everyday world and the high feelings from the validation and flattery are like a drug.
Most of us give our heads a wobble at this point and enjoy it for what it is, but realise that that’s all it is.
I think other factors in the life and character of some people can override that bit, the intoxication of the feeling takes over and you’re ripe for an obsession if it’s a hobby or even a career, and an affair if it’s a person doing the worshipping.
He’s become a legend in his own lunchtime as they say and he bloody loves it. Fool.
At the point of obsession/ infatuation, people find real life becoming no more than an obstacle to their high and tend to try to forget about, diminish and devalue real life to excuse what they know deep down is just chasing the dragon, whatever form it takes.
He’s so far down the rabbit hole that he can’t see it for what it is, which is a tragedy for OP and will end up as a tragedy for him too, stupid, stupid man.

@LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta this could absolutely also be true. It’s a rare thing I think that both affair partners back off at the same time. Even if they both want the affair, there’s always one partner more invested than the other and “Let’s cool this down/ stop this” from one partner is rarely met with “Yeah, ok then.” from the other.
When I found out my husband was having an affair I made the colossal but common mistake of believing him, because now it was in the open, why would he bother continuing to lie? You can’t wrap your ahead around the level of deceit and it takes a while for it to sink in that the affair version of your husband really isn’t the version you always thought you had. So, you still think they are operating by their previous beliefs and values system but they are absolutely not. If anything the lying ramps up after discovery in the ensuing panic of trying to regain the control they had of a now spiralling out of control situation.
Once @FourAndFive started objecting, the panic set in that she had noticed what was actually going on, he tried pressure and guilting her and manipulating her, that didn’t work, so now his only choice is to reassure her that there’s nothing to see here.
That’s why to me, ditching the woman completely now and taking the hobby elsewhere are the only way to prove to OP and reassure her that this woman is no big deal.
If his ‘friend’ was exactly that, a friend, they’d be mortified to know that his wife thought their friendship was innapropriate and doing everything to maintain distance and reassure OP that it’s just a friendship.
Real friends care about the state of your marriage, they don’t wheedle their way into it. Husbands who only want a friend shouldn’t let them, either.

@Thewookiemustgo did you husband continue to lie and carry on the affair after he told you because he felt so guilty?? I thought you said previously that you told him if he walked out the door not clear on what he wanted it was over?

Sorry if I made that up. I just remember your advice because it’s so insightful

He was very clear on what he wanted, and ended it, but extremely afraid of how to get what he wanted without hell breaking loose all over again ie how to tell the AP it was over without another shitshow.
She’d never understand the about-turn after all he’d said to her. He’d fobbed her off about not leaving me yet a few times by then, and she’d started to get suspicious of him and made a few threats and ultimatums about what might happen if he never followed through. An abrupt dump and ghost by text might prompt a less than favourable reaction, so he met up with her to tell her fact to face.
He was scared that his AP would erupt if she got dumped at this point and that she’d contact me and blow his story out of the water.
The woman was so close to having it all that to find out she’d been used was going to be a huge shock and it wasn’t going to be pretty. To say ‘it’s over’ and vanish might have serious repercussions.
He saw her and told her, she got angry and told him to fuck off and to his relief went no contact so he left it at that, but a week later she unexpectedly sent him holiday pics as if nothing had happened. Probably hoping he’d take it as a green light after the row but he didn’t. He ignored it until she got really pissed off, told him what she thought of him and that was that. I think she was angry with herself too for believing him.

That’s what I was saying earlier about the lying ramping up on discovery. It either ramps up to continue underground, or to minimise what happened when you’re forced to tell all. I’d rather it hadn’t been that way but I do get why because of the lies he’d told.
I don’t believe anybody who says their affair ended abruptly and cleanly, affairs are messy and affair endings incredibly so because there’s so much at stake. Him ending it must have been an incredible shock to her, she was only weeks away from him fulfilling his promise, they’d just spent their first night together, no sign of cold feet, then the whole thing tanked.
Could he have handled it better? Of course he could. The truth was what was needed and I’d rather be hurt by the truth than a lie, but in his panic to save his marriage he’d have said anything at that point. A few weeks later he admitted the lot because he was really happy at home but the guilt grew about lies about the actual story and it was killing him.

@Thewookiemustgo ahh I see, at first when he told you it was a sanitised version of the truth but he knew the full truth could be exposed if he didn’t manage his AP and end it in a way that didn’t have her full steam ahead on ruining his life? Then he told you the full truth anyway because of guilt / knowing there was a possibility it would be held over him by his AP if he didn’t?

Has he been fulfilling his responsibilities as a father and to keep the household afloat in financial and practical terms? In the (I think) 2 months or so he’s lived elsewhere?

If your husband has been in contact with her and lying to you about it, it's game over. It would be one explanation of his stance in marital therapy and why he's not just made no progress, but seems to be going backwards to wanting you to go to events where you will be seeing him interact with her and reliving the first near year of his EA.

He kept how much contact he was having with her and their whole relationship under wraps from you for nearly a year. He's capable of lying to you and did.

He wants both of you. He wants the appearance and status of marriage to you, even though he's hollowed that out by his having an EA. That maintains his self image of a "good" man and feeds his social persona. He wants EA partner to go do his hobby with. She feeds his ego and sense of self. This is big for a man with a high need for outside validation.

In therapy, can you introduce co-parenting as a topic? He's making no progress and I find it disturbing he wants to recreate the year of his EA with you there. There's something off there. Changing the focus from your marriage to after could let him see that he's approaching a point of no return. Discuss parenting plans. Is he still staying at a friend's?

Yes. He fulfilled his promise to end it after I confronted him, but he decided he had to manage the outcome with her because he’d lied about what what actually gone on.
Imagine suddenly realising you have to tell your spouse you’ve lived a totally unsuspected double life for a year, just after you’d already discovered yourself that you actually didn’t want the double life and had decided to end it yourself slowly and safely, by going gradually colder.
Now that’s not going to happen, you can’t do this gradually, you’ve got to do it now or lose everything. And it won’t matter that you were ending it anyway, the enormity of the length of the deception will probably end your marriage and you don’t get brownie points for reasuring your wife that you were putting an end to something anyway that you shouldn’t have done in the first place.
Most people who don’t want out of their marriage, realising it’s going to be very hard for their spouse to prove any of it, lie their heads off to minimise the residual damage to themselves and their spouse. They’ve lied to save their ass for months, they think these lies are ok because they protect their spouse from further hurt but they never do, it makes it worse.
If I hadn’t found out then, I wouldn’t know to this day, it would have ended quietly and be a secret.
As I said, since OP saw what was going on and objected, her husband is either lying about what is going on in order to be able to continue all of it, or minimising and lying to himself and OP to put himself ‘in the right’, in order to give himself permission to continue the hobby but not the friendship, or it really has died down so now he’s lying and minimising to reassure her that it’s ok now and safe to go back into the water.

The one thing I’d say is a definite fact about any of it, is that he’s lying to himself if he’s convinced himself that any of this is or was ok.

I agree with the previous few posts, it doesn’t get to this serious stage and then just fizzle out, it ramps up, because now he is out of the house.

If she did back off, he would be moping at home trying to get sympathy from you. But he is still high, and still not home.

They must have gone underground with it.

I have followed this thread religiously as I have been in a similar situation. I will try and give a condensed version of events.
A few years ago DH made a friend who he invited round to the house ‘in the spirit of openness’ he called it. I found it odd at first and as time went on I got more and more uncomfortable about it. I tried to articulate that I was not happy about it and that it felt inappropriate. DH tried to justify it by saying that he was just helping out a friend who was going through a hard time (Covid lockdowns which we were all going through, and she was going through divorce). They had a shared love of alcohol which made it even more toxic.
One day she left him a really vile phone message making all sorts of accusations. He played it to me - she sounded drunk or on drugs. He was devastated. He sat on the sofa and wept. I was relieved and I certainly wasn’t going to comfort him - I told him we were better off not having involvement with her. And that was it.
Until a couple of months later she messaged and apologised. I was out that day so he didn’t tell until I got home that he’d got the message and he’d gone to see her to try and find out what he had supposedly done to upset her. I was furious but he still didn’t get it. As far as he was concerned she was ‘just a friend’. A while later I organised an online party (due to the lockdowns) for his birthday with some friends of ours and he invited said friend to the house. Our kids were there (teens) and me. I tolerated it and it wasn’t really until afterwards that I really felt humiliated by it. Not one of our friends from that group called him out on it and I didn’t see or hear from any of them for about six months after. Anyhow… i repeatedly asked him to stop seeing her… he just didn’t understand why. Time passed. He was drinking more then one night he took an overdose. He came and told me straight after.

Since then he got help, stopped drinking and to my knowledge has not seen or heard from the ‘friend’ for a couple of years. She has moved away. It’s something that is always there in the background.

OP, have followed since the beginning in August

I don't think you can see the situation as clearly as you could if it was happening to a friend or a poster on here. You sound extremely intelligent and a lovely person but a 100pc clear headed thinking is impossible 24/7 in these situations, trust me.

The fact that he moved out weeks ago, and is not begging to come back, not calling to say he is miserable and desperately wants to come back into your house, your bed, your arms. The fact that he isn't promising the stars and the moon - far from it - at this point for you to forgive the disrespect of August 2025 and since, tells you everything you need to know.

Please OP, do not take him back. If this was your best friend, this is what you would say too. You are way too good for the person he unfortunately has become right now. One last clear and quick ultimatum, -one last final chance to come back with her number blocked and a promise to never go within miles of her and this particular hobby group again -and then follow through and send him the divorce papers if he doesnt gratefully grab at the last chance kindly given to him

how is he not begging to come back , with a 17 year old son still living at home

It’s just that there is nothing concrete and he is trying to make out that she is being controlling and unreasonable asking him to ‘stop being friends’ with this other woman.

It must feel like a total overreaction to end a long and happy marriage because of this, but let me ask you one thing op:

Have you ever, in the history of your relationship ever asked him to cut off contact with anyone else?

Main character syndrome - wow, now that is a keeper!

He came to the house on Wednesday evening, and he immediately felt the shift in me. I was knackered and indifferent, I only said a few words to him and couldn't look at him. He was shocked that 'I seemed to have gone backwards'. I told him that I'd said everything I needed to, I'm bored, tired and sick of thinking about it.

He then announced that he had made the only decision he could make "fine - I'll cut all contact". I say announced (proclaimed would've been a better word) because there was a underlying patronising tone that flipped a switch in me and my god did he get all barrels. I think he got every single wise word given to me on this thread, no shouting either, just firm and unwavering. It felt GREAT.

By the end of the evening, he very sincerely said that he will absolutely never be in touch with her again, he was so very sorry about everything. He really, genuinely thought that him giving me space (note the 'him giving me' space and not me asking him to leave - I put that straight), and proving that he doesn't actually care about her 'like that', I would eventually be okay. He thought the therapy would help me see that it was innocent, he wasn't a bad person - but it hasn't, and he's now accepted that. He thought that some boundaries would help - but can see why it wont. That I would miss him. Main Character Syndrome.

A few posters have said that I should look at the marriage as a whole, and I think this is 100% fair...

My heart is heavy. There isn't much relief. Initially I felt positive, I did need to hear those words - but that went really quickly. He really has been a colossal prick and I am really angry, and there is still that indifference, a shrug to it all. Perhaps I'll believe it when I see it. I also feel guilty because I know he'll be sad. I have a lump in my throat. I feel like I've done something wrong. I should be relieved that we've reached this point and not sad that he will be sad. What a mind fuck that is. That will take some unpicking.

I know there is no compromise here, I will not do that to me or the kids. Enough of his ludicrous self serving bollocks. If you want it, go for it. See you later, I'm worth more than that. How dare you.

I don't know how he will do it but she has to know for my peace of mind. Regardless of her not being around - she could reappear, just turn up, just text to arrange something for them as before. The narrative from him is very, very important. Transparency is very, very important - I need the details. There is no way this just goes away neatly for him. Perhaps then I can look forwards.

No, I've never had to. I never thought I would. Hence the guilt.