Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

Not a lot at the moment. Not a lot.

I never wanted it to be a lose/lose.

Ultimatum - lose.

Let it continue - lose.

There was a way we could walk out of it, if he stopped it.

He'll be one of those men who tells everyone indignantly for the rest of their life, "My wife suddenly left me. I was completely blindsided!"

And on some probing, that story will change to, "She got really jealous over a completely innocent friendship at my sport! Nothing I said made any difference! She's crazy!"

There will be no understanding, no reflection, no insight, no compassion for anyone but himself.

They were not just mates though. The lies, secrecy, emotional support, shared hopes and dreams, mutual adoration etc is an emotional affair. That’s what you need to concentrate on him understanding. Neither of you can move forward until he gets it. But you can’t waste your life waiting for him to catch up, eventually you will need to make a choice — allow him to live in his delusion that he did very little wrong other than not be transparent and risk it happening again or move on without him.

Once he accepts he had an emotional affair it will be easier for him to understand why you can’t be friends or even in contact with someone you have had an emotional affair with if you have genuine remorse and want forgiveness from your spouse.

Right now he continues to see their relationship as a friendship, that you felt uncomfortable with for some ‘silly’ reasons, which he now regrets because it’s impacted on his hobby and ability to have her in his life.

But that narrative is not true for you. Why the need for lies if it wasn’t inappropriate? Dialling back contact isn’t enough. You will be constantly policing his phone and asking if he has heard from her. How can you trust him not to cross boundaries again when he hasn’t even acknowledged he crossed them in the first place?

Taking control here is the only option that will work for you in the longer term, as well as stopping you feel as though you’re sinking ever deeper into the hole. As I said previously it’s frightening. But you can only control what you do, not what he does. That’s horribly apparent now. You have facilitated his fixing this, more than facilitated it. You have asked him to leave. Yet essentially nothing’s changed, other than him increasingly filling your head space. Which is not conducive to you seeing things clearly, in fact as time goes on it’s likely to prevent it.

He had an inappropriate and secret relationship for over a year. He then told you about it. When you insisted it finished he threatened suicide. He left, and has gone to counselling at your request, and you believe he’s not in touch with her atm. That’s it. That’s all. No progress, no owning of what he has done. In fact he plans to continue the relationship in plain sight ( no romanticising here ). That’s his choice, and his decision whatever he is or is not saying. Whether he realise it or not. He is choosing her/the hobby because he must surely know the outcome? Or doesn’t he believe you would leave him?

It might be the only option here to call his bluff. Of course he might go to her, but he is doing that by degrees anyhow. If he doesn’t and finally breaks away you’ll have a chance. If not, however painful you can start to rebuild your life.

What is this hobby that is so all encompassing that he is willing to blow up his marriage and life for?
I cannot fathom any hobby being so important. If it is so important can he not join in another group, a different area for said hobby.?
Sorry OP if you don't want to say, I understand but it's so hard for people to get their heads round a hobby impacting a man's life to this extent.
Also the hobby/ EA partner will be backing off and not contacting him with the hope he will miss her, she is definitely playing the game.

Yes for someone who was prepared to take his own life if he was prevented from seeing his ‘friend’ - he’s coped remarkably well with the sudden physical distance and ‘change’ in communications from her - being ‘indifferent’ to her now - it’s not stacking up. Probs another phone or a pause in the ‘relationship’ until things look respectable.

How does she and her mother (your mutual friend?) understand your current separation?

Putting yourself and your feelings first is definitely not "losing."

You can’t continue like this, that’s for sure. Carrying on like this changes nothing. I think a full-on ultimatum, if you still want the marriage at all, looks like your only option left. He’s had a chance to give his head a wobble himself and knows your objections. He’s just moving goalposts around to see what you’ll tolerate, not listening to your expectations at all.
If he even thinks this new level of contact or lack of it will be ok, then he has totally minimised his actions and underestimated the impact on you or even the level of risk. He doesn’t think he’s ever going to lose you, he’s manipulating the situation based on that belief.
I don’t think it’s a lose-lose dilemma, that implies two choices and carrying on like this is not a choice anyone would accept.
He’s left you with one option, no other choice than a non-negotiable ultimatum and if he can’t or won’t listen, he’ll be the loser.
If nothing changes, you get to lose a man who still puts himself above you, your feelings and your marriage, despite your pain and obvious objections. I’d call that a win.

Your husband has some narcissistic traits, his need for admiration, his lack of empathy and self awareness, and he's manipulative to a high degree and gaslights you a lot. That means you need a very strong support system and extremely strong boundaries.

You're a few months into marriage counseling and not only has he not budged in taking accountability, he's suddenly got the urge to trample your boundaries in the worst way, by having you at his hobby where he will be friendly with his EA partner. He's explored the idea (being friendly with her at events, how could he not be, cue shock) and now he thinks it's time for you to get back in your wife box and support him.

Really?

This is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on a while. He reminds me of a worm trying to wriggle out of a bucket.

You can vent here, this is a support system of sorts. Individual therapy is one where you can really lay it out without holding back and do check ins as to whether you're out in left field or right on. Your family and friends are another. Utilize a mindfulness practice where you empty your mind as much as possible.

When he brought Ms Cuckoo into your marriage, he split what had been a team into two sides. He is not on your side anymore.

I thought he was ND too. Especially with the intensity of the hobby and threatening to commit suicide if he can't continue it or continue to see this friend. One of my autistic friends is exactly like this with his hobbies and also develops intense, inappropriate friendships with other women, which he sees as innocent but his partners at the time don't and it can cause problems.

I imagine at the root of it, its not really about the hobby.
It'll be that this is something he's good at, feels part of and most importantly he gets positive feedback for his participation.
She is part of that world and encompasses all of those things so reflects them back at him and he gets validation as someone who is utterly brilliant in her eyes. @FourAndFive it really won't even be about her it's who he feels like in that world that he's addicted to.
In my husbands case he was comfortable and confident in his job, was a star player and got an ego to with it. At home I was moaning at him because he wasn't pulling his weight and at work he was a superstar and he believed the hype about himself.
Naturally his ap was a colleague who had also bought into his superstar status without really knowing him - the husband who used to literally ignore me and the kids at the dinner table whilst laughing and joking with colleagues on the phone. Looking back now it was bloody awful and I can't imagine why I put up with it.
But it is never about her or the job / hobby. It's about filling the gaps in his life where he doesn't feel like a superstar with people that think he is..

If he comes home after cutting all contact I pretty certain I'll be left with a miserable, hard done by, woe is me, 'my wife is so mean', bad mannered, man child. Someone he has never been, or ever thought he could be.

My marriage as I knew it is over, we know this.

The new one wont work for me either. It had to be his move, not mine. What an absolute idiot.

I think you are brilliant OP.

For me, I know whatever happened, there would be a tiny little voice in my head that knew that he didn't fight for me. When I stood up and said 'everything is a risk,' he didn't immediately fight for the life we built together.

Whether I could live with that, I don't think I would know until I was faced with it. But I know myself, and I know that little voice would always be there.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this shitty situation.

I don’t think you need to frame it like an ultimatum but you just make it clear what you NEED to move past it. Your actions were a betrayal of our marriage, and you have deeply hurt me. The only way I can attempt to heal from this is if I know you have made the decision to completely cut her out of your life. Is this something you are willing to do?

It’s a yes or no answer, that lets you know where you stand whilst not allowing him to claim you are the one that walked away from the marriage.

If I remember correctly, somewhere up-thread the OP said she’d asked him to do this and he didn’t answer.

If your husband finally came to his senses and did all the things you wanted him to do in order to get you back do you think that would be enough for you or will this always be hanging over your head? I ask this as your husbands despicable behaved has left YOU between a rock and a hard place and I wondered if this new marriage of sorts should it come about, would be enough for you?

What does he think he's waiting for to come back home?

Is he waiting for something from you, or are you waiting for something from him and if so, does he know what?

Because it's really hard to understand why he's just not doing what you need him to do. What on earth is he thinking?

He is showing you his move though, it may appear to be inaction, but it’s a clear choice. I think that people are encouraging the ultimatum scenario as a way of empowering you, and allowing you to take back some control. There’s also a possibility ( albeit tiny ) that he might finally realise what’s at risk, if we assume he hasn’t until now.

You are correct in that your marriage as it was is over, whatever happens. I think through time you’ll realise it wasn’t all as it has seemed, whether you are apart or together. That’s not a bad thing necessarily.

So far, and understandably you have been focused on how you two, as a unit get through this. I strongly encourage you to start to try to change that mindset. It doesn’t mean you are giving up on any possibility of reconciliation. It does mean you can focus on you, on your DC, and your needs, not his no matter how much you want to help him still. It’s not easy to do this, but it’s crucial to moving forward. At this moment in time you are not that unit.

If nothing else is clear, what is surely is that, even without the relationship, his selfish prioritising of himself, and his hobby has negatively impacted you and your DC, whether or not you realised it. It is unlikely to be sustainable at any level going forward.

@Allthegoodonesareg0ne nailed the answer to this, but to give you some examples:
chess
ultra running / running club
am dram
improv club
golf
mountain biking
rock climbing
any team sport
I know many people IRL who have unhealthy relationships with hobbies.

Perhaps because it was asked in a way that didn’t demand an answer. At the time I think OP didn’t want to feel like she had forced him into it because she didn’t want to end up with a sulking man child who blamed her for ruining his life and threatening suicide. He knows what she needs but he’s avoiding it. But this can’t go on forever. She now needs a yes or no answer. If no, then it’s the end of their marriage and he should take responsibility for this because he prioritised his hobby / OW (although I’m sure he’ll twist it to be the victim)

I could be wrong but I feel you are not ending it as you don’t want to see how things will unfold … if he will run straight to her if you end things. I understand that. The thought of it is painful :(

It’s just he has gotten into her head so much that she thought she was being unreasonable asking him to stop the ‘friendship’ that was upsetting her so much. He put up a good fight too.

He was completely over invested in this hobbie before this happened, so his selfishness was established IMO.

It reads to me that you absolutely adored him, were very tolerant of him and his hobby obsession, and he has completely taken you, and your adoration as his right.

His complete confidence in your adoration being a permanent unmovable certainty, gave him the space to fancy him a little extra ego boost.

I think the dynamic of your relationship has long been imbalanced.

I'm not blaming you, but I am saying that it is never good for someone to believe that they are so revered they are above the normal parameters of amonogamous marriage.

I think as time goes on you will realise this Emperor has no clothe, and you deserve so much better than his pathetic out of contro, entitled ego.

I get the sense you no longer have an issue with the other woman, but with trust in your husband. It sounds like it’s not being able to rely on him in this type of situation, maybe others too, to appropriately prioritise you and your shared family, over his own wish for fun.
Do you think this will ever change? Or will you be forever just waiting for the next issue?

In these situations, of which I have witnessed many, there are two positions, blaming the OW, or blaming the husband/partner.

It is fruitless and a complete waste of time to expect loyalty from another woman.

The loyalty is only to be expected from the person you are in a relationship with.

Women waste a lot of energy on the OW.
Focus on the person who made promises and commitments to you.

Forget randomers, they own you zilch.