Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

@FourAndFive you're being so strong at such a difficult time.
I remember when I first posted about my situation and I had so many amazingly supportive posters who were so steadfastly on my side and dead set against my husband. I was reading them all, which were so kindly meant, but I was thinking the whole time but you don't know him like I know him.
I knew that he was doing a selfish and hurtful thing but I also knew who he was really. I knew he was going through something and had made some terribly hurtful choices but I felt strongly that I knew this wasn't what defines him.
I know that's impossible for many to understand. But I think what we all want really is to be loved in spite of our worst choices.
That's not to say that we have to let their worst moments drag us down. We have to choose carefully considered boundaries that protect us. And at some point, even knowing them as we do and loving them as do, that might mean stepping back from them and remaining separated, maybe eventually permanently.
But what I'm trying to say is I see how you are holding space for him in his worst moment whilst priorising yourself and your children. It's a delicate balance and always be sure to lean in your own direction if you feel yourself wobbling towards him in a way that would open you up to more hurt.
But I so admire your ability to continue to love him for who you have known whilst protecting yourself.
I'm rooting for you still, whatever path you decide is right

Why I'm suggesting a time limit on a genuine show of awareness of what he did, remorse, and change in attitude is you're well into marriage counseling and you should be seeing some sort of self awareness or a breakthrough on his part. You're separated, and he's letting you wait around but not really making any effort. He's pretending that they just had a friendship and complaining how hard done by he is not being able to pick friends that he centers his life around instead of his family. Now that she's not responding like she previously did, he's giving you the she's not all that. But he didn't choose to leave her behind. If she changed her mind, would he go running and be back to planning trips and everything revolving around her again?

She changed. He didn't.

What happened in the end, are you still together?

Yes we are. But it took a while. We are still working through things but we are both happy we decided to stay together and many aspects of our marriage are better than before (because of the work we've done subsequently not because of the affair itself of course!).
My situation was different to ops as he admitted an actual affair. But there are parallels.
In my case my husband was pretty obsessive about his job, to the point it was impacting on every aspect of all our lives.
He's since figured out he was doing a pretty poor job as a husband and a father and rather than face that, when someone (younger, with no children) came along and thought he was the bees knees he was able to convince himself that meant he was brilliant and that the issues were all mine. Naturally she was a colleague- as they always seem to fish in their favourite pond of the moment as ops dh has done with his hobby.
It actually all sat as part of a bigger picture that came out of a fairly traumatic event in his life a couple of years earlier. So there's been a lot of work to do on both of parts but on balance it's been worth it.

Thanks for your reply, it was interesting. Sounds like the work he did (and you) and him taking responsibility for his actions was key to you staying together.
I hope it continues to go well

@outerspacepotato you are right, of course. And I've been having a think about everything because there have been some posters who just wouldn't do what I am prepared to do for my marriage. I get it.

It is so hard to explain, but, as @Allthegoodonesareg0ne so helpfully wrote:

I knew that he was doing a selfish and hurtful thing but I also knew who he was really. I knew he was going through something and had made some terribly hurtful choices but I felt strongly that I knew this wasn't what defines him.

I know that I do not have to put up with anything that makes me uncomfortable, I can walk away, stop it and get divorced and all of that. But, rightly or wrongly, I still see that as a lose/lose at the moment. It will get to the point where I wont give a shit, I know that. The time hasn't come yet. And honestly, maybe I am being unfair on him, because I haven't told him that will come. He's not stupid though.

He knows what he has done, how it looked. I see him in pain, wanting the future to be okay for us but also wanting his hobby friend in his life, albeit under a totally different set of 'rules'.

He has said that he won't DO the hobby with her anymore, but instead because every now and again they'll inadvertently be in the same place at the same time, they can enjoy the hobby together. They're 'just mates, after all' (HA!)...

He says he had stopped texting her before she went of the radar, and he thinks that her not being in touch with him fixes everything. It proves it was only platonic, and not a big deal (HA!). He is worried that he'll see her at the hobby, and he will find it hard not to say hello or acknowledge her because he's not like that. I find that easy to believe, knowing him as I do.

I know I can't do that.

I know that he shouldn't give a shit about her - only us. But he is going through something, and I want it to work it's self out, together. It's the only way I think we can move forward.

i find it strange that we don't know what 'the hobby[ is???

or maybe I have missed it??
I mean there is a difference in social contact one might have in am dram and say, fishing??

He knows what he has done, how it looked. I see him in pain, wanting the future to be okay for us but also wanting his hobby friend in his life, albeit under a totally different set of 'rules'.

Oh OP, come on. He doesn't know what he's done, or he would be letting you know he doesn't give a fuck about this woman, and meaning it. If I thought a friendship threatened my marriage, I would drop the friendship gladly. The fact that he is still - still! - banging on about being friends with this woman surely tells you what you need to know.

I appreciate you feel you know your husband is just 'going through something' but it sounds to me like he's taking the piss. I would be telling him in no uncertain terms that he needs to get through it immediately or lose his marriage. You are continuing to entertain his delusion that he can have it all the way he wants it. Let him know what the stakes actually are. Or is this just an act from you, going through the motions of asserting yourself, but really just terrified of losing him? I mean, I get it, if that's the case. But maybe you need to really consider what making yourself so small and compliant has done to you.

@wrongthinker he told me he was going to commit suicide and it did change the way I've chosen to deal with it. We're picking over that in therapy, as well as other things.

I am terrified of losing him, you are right - but also, not at all.

I know what I want, and I know things will come to a conclusion soon enough.

I'd be happy not to post until there is certainty.

(edit for typo)

Is anything improving right now?

OP you’re doing what you need to do. Some here cannot appreciate any path except LTB and sometimes it’s what you need to hear. Sometimes though, the answer isn’t so black and white and that’s totally fine. Being able to be open to either is important imo.

I don’t think there is anything to be gained y beating the OP up over this. It seems cruel and intrusive. She needs to work it out for herself and come to her own, separate, peace. It will take the time and struggle that it takes. No more no less.

I don’t think we need to know. OP has said it might be outing. This is her life. And she doesn’t need to divulge anything she’s not comfortable with or behave in certain ways that meet our personal
expectations or the standards we may set for ourselves. I know people mean well, but I really cringe at the posts urging OP to leave. It’s not our decision and no one should be telling anyone what to do.

I had the difficulty of being in a relationship where abuse was present (not physical abuse as such) and a few posters kept telling me in no uncertain terms that I needed to leave. I actually didn’t find this helpful even though I know it was meant kindly. It made me feel ashamed. Because I didn’t leave. I chose to stay. For my own reasons. And when people were urging me to leave, it made me feel crap. I have always vowed since then not to tell anyone to leave or to stay. It isn’t up to me. And they don’t need to justify their decision or explain their reasoning. I am not entitled to demand details from any poster.

Sorry @Fionuala all that wasn’t aimed at you!!

I’m not saying OP that your DH’s behaviour is abuse, just that it is a support forum and I feel people should be supporting you in your decision, not urging you to make the one they would make.

Totally agree. Xx

I agree, this is real life and a real situation playing out. Its not a TV show where everything is all wrapped up over a six week series, and once resolved, goes happily off into the sunset, with the bad guy suitably punished with a life of woe in a bedsit.

there are years of good times to unravel - although it seems some light is being shone on those, and to the fact that they may have been good times whilst OPs husband was able to be the star and do what he wanted. Its really hard to see how things are when you are in the midst, to spot where your normal has warpd and you have shrunk yourself, because it happens so so slowly - boiling frogs seems too fast for this type of gradual submission to someone elses needs and wants, especially if the road is apparently joyful and fullfilling.

Its telling that until the point of this woman, OP was happy with the husbands obsessions outside the home taking up so much of his time and attention.

@Fionuala , I mean there is a difference in social contact one might have in am dram and say, fishing??
Yes. Am dram is sociable and has a bad reputation for affairs, fishing is more a solitary activity and doesn't.

Reading your last 2 updates and it seems that as far as your H is concerned, it is still all about him and his feelings. What about you OP?
You've got the patience of a saint, can he not see how lucky he is not to be in receipt of divorce papers? Why is he still complaining?
Saying that it will be awkward to not talk to her at The Hobby, for goodness sake, it is out of the question for them to talk to each other, she has (unwittingly or not) almost wrecked his life. The pair of them should be a million miles away from each other. She should know that, as well as him. Does he really want to lose his family? He hasn't really taken any lead in fixing things at all.

It also did occur to me that they are not in contact with each other currently because they have been rumbled and are biding their time until you and H officially split up, at which point they can "go public" legitimately and blame you for it all.

By time limit, I don't mean in a month. This situation developed over a year and I would say put a limit of between 6 months and a year on seeing some taking responsibility and change in him and continuing marital therapy and accessing individual therapy. I would say @FourAndFive has handled this well. She's separated, but hopes to reconcile after a long and generally happy marriage of decades. They're in therapy. They're discussing his suicide threats. She's really clear on the changes she wants to see and her goals.

I would say she needs to be prepared for changes in herself through this whole process too.

He’s gaslighted you - the events and emotions have been so twisted into a pretzel.

Threatening suicide if you didn’t allow him his ‘friendship’ is appalling - the lowest of the low in abuse terms - he has made you an emotional hostage.

Maybe have a look at The Freedom Programme online see if anything resonates or not.

@FourAndFive i think you have handled all this with grace. Ignore people telling you you’re under reacting or being a fool. They don’t know your husband or you and the complexities of the situation.

From what you have said he knows he is in the wrong with how he approached the friendship and not being transparent. He claims that this is from naivety and not because he was doing anything wrong but he now accepts how that looked and understands why you were upset. To reconcile he’s agreed no longer to message her, to not go away with her, and not to do the hobby with her but doesn’t want to give up the hobby and knows he will come into contact with her and wants to remain on friendly terms so it’s not awkward?

If my understanding is correct none of that seems unreasonable. But is it that you don’t believe it was all innocent and that you want him to acknowledge his feelings towards her were not platonic? What are your expectations and what is it that you want from his behaviour going forward?

Apologies @FourAndFive if my comments were unkind. I didn't intend them that way. I do understand you are doing what you need to do and it's your relationship, not mine! Sometimes it helps to have people giving you their different perspectives - most of us have been through various similar situations so I guess it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking what I would do/have done. Especially when it comes to the suicide threat, which is to my mind a highly manipulative and controlling tactic. But I definitely had no intention of being cruel or intrusive.

I can see where you're coming from, even though I believe I wouldn't take that path. Do you think he would do the same fore you if the roles were reversed?

he told me he was going to commit suicide

Wow he's really a piece of work! You realise that threats (and that's all they ever are, threats, they never go through with it) of suicide is a classic move from the abusers playbook! It's to keep you in line and emotionally manipulate you. He has you right where he wants you. You can't see you're being played.

You’re a kind and fair soul OP. You’re right - good people do sometimes make bad decisions or get a bit lost in something- but I think the issue is here, he’s just never prioritising you. Still.

Every declaration of love comes with a caveat “but I might do the hobby with her” etc.

I understand why you’ve tried to give him a chance to come to his senses but he’s not doing particularly well. In a way it’s a shame she’s decided to back off because it’s forced his hand. It would have been interesting to see what decisions he would have made if she was still emotionally available. Sadly I suspect he’d still have been texting her.

Re the suicide thing, was it a credible threat? Or was in just a spontaneous outpouring of emotion due to the intensity of the situation? I understand that you want to tread carefully but this can’t be used to manipulate you.

In every post it sounds as if he still wants to have his cake and eat it. I wonder if you DID get past this, when it’s all settled down, would he resent you? I just don’t think he actually understands what he did wrong.

And because of that, you’re drifting further and further from him, without him realising. This doesn’t feel as if it’s going to end well as he’s still so blinkered - if she snapped her fingers he’d go running again, by the sounds of things.

You’re doing incredibly well and I appreciate your updates. It’s easy for us on the outside, raging on your behalf, but you need to do what feels right for you at the pace you feel comfortable with. He doesn’t deserve you though, you sound lovely.