Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

Op, he is in full blown crush now, but remember there were lots of early moments when it was NOT an addiction, it was a selfish choice that deprioritised you. There were lots of these made by him before he got to the current level of extreme.

@ILikeFerns What you posted looked like criticism, and OP is IMO handling it really well.

@fedup078 , yes, it's limerance. It is like a really bad teenage crush but on a real life person not a pop star. The examples I've seen, it's been the man crushing on a woman that they know from work/hobby/friendship group.
(I know pop stars are real people but ykwim)

Sorry, forgot to clear quote.
The hobby in that case was dancing, and the woman had a partner.
One of the friendship group ones was the man and his wife's best friend, and he is still 'in love' and the wife and best friend are still best friends. (the BF liked the attention but it became embarrassing)

That is not to say that elements of limerence aren't present now.

If its limerence there is potentially a way back. The insistence on keeping both lives (new and old) makes me think that it is because limerence is a quasi delusional state.

It doesn’t really make that much of a difference to what OP is doing, however. She perfectly reasonably has gone into counseling and is observing things.

Number ONE is to be honest with the therapist about the suicide threats. The therapist needs to be aware of the risk profile of this client. They may not agree that he is merely using the threat as a manipulation. I think it has been mentioned upthread but Family Annihilators, almost always men, can choose murder/suicide as a way out of avoiding loss of face and status associated with public knowledge of their failure. OP’s husband is absolutely unable to tolerate a reality in which he doesn’t keep gf and wife. That doesn’t make him dangerous, but it could. The therapist must be informed so they can screen him for risk.

And if I were OP I would give him, gently and with support from family and therapist, a timeline and a terminal point after which there will be no more chances. In effect he reaches the point of no return.

I think I mentioned in my very first post that he was obsessed with the hobby, this is not a new thing. It's more way more than an obsession. He cannot stop and he does need help, but that is his responsibility at the moment he has to seek that help.

Thanks for the update OP. I’ve thought about you a few times. I think him still being in contact with her even though it has most likely ended your marriage is all you need to know isn’t it? How very sad, decades of marriage, a broken home for your children, all for a person he didn’t even know a year ago. Shame on him. You are very strong.

I can understand why you use that word, he is acting like he is addicted. I think you understand why I was questioning it. Maybe obsessed is a good word?
Does your DH usually get obsessive about things? Is he single minded / get tunnel vision about things?
It also occurs to me that maybe he doesn't have romantic feelings for her which is why he can't comprehend he is doing anything wrong ( I had this with a partner once and because he didn't fancy her his flirtatious should have been a problem for me) just a thought.

Good point

Sorry didn't see your last post

His addiction is himself, his wants, needs and ego, probably has been through his entire marriage.

He will never admit wrongdoing as this would change the dynamic in his marriage if he were to remain, he knows this. It is imperitive that he sticks to his narrative and op, if waiting for remorse or mercy is going to be waiting a long time.

The thing is op, he has taken you for granted, his lengthy marriage, the cozy homes that devoted wives create, are usually built on many compromises and an unswerving love that he has not yet felt the loss of.
At the moment he may feel he can do without this devotion and loyalty from you but as the weeks and months slip by your love will become a distant memory for him, he will feel neglected and that may provoke him into anger.
Cake eaters want it all, the reputation, the everlasting love and the fun away from home that makes them feel alive.

There really arn't any winners with men like these, emotions and loyalty are not paid back in kind, feelings are minimised as irrelevant and unimportant, and many equate love with how much you can swallow and forgive.

Look at him as a whole, not as your husband or the father of your children, think of him, his morals, his views, his nature, because sometimes there is just no getting through to them. Trying to understand, minimise or excuse his motives is pointless, he's doing it because it's pure joy at the moment, that hurts I know but he can do this by having zero empathy, this is him, a man with no concience.

His consequences are happening right now, they are being enforced by you, he no longer has cozy rooms and respect, he is falling off the pedestal and your looks into his eyes will reveal all, your disgust must be palpable, still he digs his heels in, very soon he will be the talk of the town as gossip speads about him being a creep.
He's created, chaos, unstability and hate in your home, he is refusing to accept this, even if he came to his senses he would blame you for not allowing him the freedom to live and love, he really is stupid and self absorbed, I guarantee this will backfire on him eventually. He will try to shame and humiliate you into silence, take no responsibility, this is him, do not quiet yourself for him.

Within one year he has demolished what you have built over many years, he's going to have to catch up with that information and I've a feeling you are capable of ensuring he understands this.

I bet he's never had you pull the love from him before, he's got a real treat coming.

I think OP is saying that the addiction is to the hobby, and the OW (for want of a better term) is bound up in that. He may also have a crush, limerance etc in addition to the hobby addiction, but it's hard to say because she and it are so intertwined. But he can't give her up because he can't do that without losing the hobby. She facilitates him and reciprocates the addiction to the hobby. He's a selfish, immature bellend either way though.

Ah OK, thank you OP for clarifying. And that makes sense @Planesmistakenforstars

I think calling it an addiction to the hobby and OW is just trying to reframe it in a more palatable way. Is he really that different to other men who develop crushes and have affairs? Why is it 'addiction' with him and just being an unfaithful creep for other men?

He's shown you that he can live without you and the children, but won't live without her. You can continue to wait and play the Pick Me dance, but I'd have a serious think about whether he's actually a prize you still want to win.

His ego is wrapped up with everthing, his hobby, him remaining the upstanding husband and father, his feelings of thinking he deserves this friendship.

You could replace hobby with many things, obsession with work etc, if they believe the activity is nobel, they believe the aquaintences they make through that activity is ok.

Time off for good behaviour, being a great husband, a great competitor, his reward is someone idolising him appart from the high he gets from competing, trying and winning. He has a new cheerleader who he feels is giving him more than you op.
It is ego driven and it's painful to watch, someone who's egomania is out of control, whoever tries to get through to him will probably fail at this point.

But for you, this early period is brutal and utterly exhausting trying to prevent futher hurt and knowing full well that this fantasy may end at some point.
Take care of yourself, do not expect too much of yourself, remain in situ, it is your home he is trying to demolish and you are trying to prevent that.
You are on the hell rollercoaster and it doesn't look like it's ending soon, take your time, go at your pace, you may feel like you are treading water but a shift is happening, you are learning how to detatch for you own survival.

It takes a long time, regardless of the outcome to come to terms with loss, you will get there and survive but understand the waxing and waning of emotions, the anger, the sadness, can be debillitating so you need to focus on your health and rest as much as possible. The push/pull of anger and depression is a very stressful, you won't forget this time and neither should you, he has exposed you to trauma.

It's interesting you think addiction is more palatable. I assure you it isn't - far from it.

It's also interesting you think by me trying to honour the time we've been married, and for me to come to this objectively is a pick me dance. Respectfully, if that was the case - he'd be at home and I would be finding a different way for contact to be broken. Contacting her, the family, begging, pleading etc. None of that here.

And I certainly wouldn't be feeling strength from the belief that what ever happens, I'll be fine.

I don't see him as a prize either. As someone put so eloquently up thread - he's a bellend, but at the moment this course of action is right for me and that's all I care about today.

I think your children must be disgusted with him.

I also feel we have be conditioned as women to make excuses for men. If it was a woman doing this there would be all sorts of names however when it’s a male we use words like addiction and look for a diagnosis when really and I mean this with respect to you @FourAndFive , I find he’s behaving like a selfish prick.

@FourAndFive this must be so difficult for you, as your in limbo really. He says he wants to be with you and have access to her in whatever way he thinks is appropriate. For my experience, I have found it easier that even though my H had an emotional affair and then said he didn't want to be with me, I told him to leave and he hasn't asked to come back. I would have really really struggled had he asked to come back, even though I 100% have wanted that, and possibly part of me still does.

Would you ever imagine doing this to him, and if not why not? He should have the same respect and appreciation for you.

None of this can be easy on you, just make sure you prioritise your own self esteem and wellbeing and remind yourself of your worth.

Obsession and limerance excuse nothing, they develop because of an original decision to pursue a deliberate choice. However, men and women in these situations really do lose the plot for a while, the dopamine high is off the chart and they really do do and say some ridiculous shit.
“Support” threads on here started by OW or ex OW or adults with inappropriate crushes always start “Help me get over this! Help me stop!” and are given great advice and how-to and a ton of understanding but nearly always end with “But you don’t understaaannnddddd…he’s my soulmate….never felt like this before…” and the bottom line is that it makes them feel good and they don’t actually want to stop.

Do they ever see sense though? And i don't mean come crawling back, but does the high wear of and reality kick in?
It seems so unfair if not!

I am another one who thinks the word "addiction" is a handy way for him to not take any responsibility for his behaviour.

I also think that his obsession with this hobby (a hobby you share, I think you said?) has only been identified as an "addiction" since he has been using it as cover for his affair.

You know best, OP, but I would be wary about letting him redefine his behaviour this way. He has made choices, to put the OW first and you last. He has threatened to kill himself if he has to stop seeing the OW. He is willing to jeopardise your marriage so he can keep seeing her. Those are his choices.

If it was about the hobby, he could continue with the hobby whilst cutting off his relationship with OW. But he is apparently too "addicted" to do that. It seems to me that he is muddying the waters with this concept of addiction. Ultimately, he is making choices. If he wanted to make different choices, he would. People give up addictions all the time because they choose to do so.

I realise a lot of "I would do this", "I would not do that" posts aren't necessarily going to help you, OP, but here comes another one!

I do wonder why you didn't tell the counsellor about your husband's suicide threats in the first 5 minutes of your meeting. How can the counsellor understand the situation without the information that shows how absurdly extreme your husband's feelings are? I would have mentioned that as soon as we got through the door.

So what's the plan OP, do you have any timescales?

I hope you are getting some 1:1 therapy to help you navigate this very difficult time. I think you need an impartial person to speak to and ensure you’re putting yourself first as your DH sounds like he hasn’t been and I think you deserve better. I know it is hard and you’re doing it on your own terms which is important, but don’t waste too much time on someone that is inherently selfish as you might regret it. Hopefully a therapist will help you know when you have given him enough of your time and then you can work on prioritising yourself and your kids. Sending virtual hugs

Addict, schmaddict.

Not yet, no - I will though.

I know I deserve better, my DC's deserve better and I promise I wont spend too much longer waiting to find out if he is indeed just a selfish prick.

Thank you @ThatHappyBlueCritic