Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

This is so sad. You’ve had so much advice, I won’t repeat any of it, but wondering what gifts he has been buying her? Even if hobby related - would he buy gifts for a male friend?
I think you already know what’s going on here. I’m so sorry for you.

This!!

Why? What on earth difference would it make? Unless the hobby is something incredibly niche like 'The Wookey Hole Cheddar Cheese Appreciation Society' that has sixteen members globally and they all live within 5 miles of Wookey Hole, then it's highly unlikely to indentify anyone.

Cycling or a gym obsession, open water swimming or Cosplay or Am Dram or a new obsession with a happy clappy charismatic church or whatever are all hugely popular and pretty generic. Even if she did identify it as Crossfit specifically, that's a global outfit and we don't even know if she's in the UK. It hardly narrows these people down to Sidcup or Wolverhampton.

Why would a 28 year old want a married man nearly 20 years older? It reads as if she's enjoying knowing a fellow hobbyist and he's got a crush.

But it's not platonic is it? Yes they might not have done anything physical. But the emotional connection and reliance is way more than just friends.
The way he speaks about her
The way he speaks to her
The frequency of contact
His behaviour around it all - the secrecy etc
The excessive compliments and 'I'm so glad I found you / we're friends
The threats of suicide if this friendship breaks off

None of that is normal in most people's friendships (particularly for someone new) and lost importantly none of that is normal for his friendships. Its not right that for a married person, they meet someone of the opposite sex that rapidly becomes one of the most important people in their lives to the extent that they threaten suicide if they can't contact them, whilst hiding it from their partner

The fact that he hasn't done anything that you ask shows that he doesn't actually care what you think (and is possibly in denial that he's doing anything wrong, which makes this very difficult)

As other posters have likely said, it's never an older male that they form these very intense bonds with

I think all you can do is point out that the way he has been behaving, every single point, is all indicative of very strong attraction and its wildly inappropriate for someone who is not single, he is in denial that he can't see how his behaviour is wrong, and you can't be in a relationship with someone who is acting like they are in love with someone else

Also its a bit disturbing if he thinks being extra attwntive to you to 'show you how much he loves you' somehow gives him a free pass to simper all over someone else at the same time

Please don’t embarrass yourself by saying anything to her as suggested here. If it gets to the point where you have to beg the OW to stay away, why the fuck would you want to stay with him anyway?

The point is, if he won’t stay away from her when you have requested him not to, the relationship isn’t worth saving. I would never embarrass myself by approaching the other woman.

It's an emotional affair and he isnt ready to end the affair. However the woman may not realise what this is doing to your marriage. It's quite likely she sees him as just a friend and would be horrified at the idea it could be anything more as he's so much older than her. OTOH she might be interested if she realises its a possibility.

You've met her - do you think she would cool it off if she realised or is this the end of the marriage and you are willing for her to take him on?

If you want this to end stop letting him have so much time for the hobby. Find other things for him to do or other people doing the hobby for him to do it with. Go along to his hobby with him and take your children so she can see what she'd be splitting up.

The suicide comment would be the deal-breaker for me. That in itself needs addressing. Good luck, OP, with whatever you decide to do and sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

Agree-the hobby type is relevant here.

Your husband appears to have fallen very deeply for this woman if the idea of not continuing the relationship as is leads to talk of taking his own life. Honestly, I genuinely think there is nothing you can do while he's in this place emotionally other than decide whether to distance yourself or sit helplessly waiting for the inevitable crash. I know I couldn't do the latter, so I'd be leaving, even if temporarily with a view to seeing if anything could be salvaged from the wreck.

There is a degree of truth in this, but what really matters is his response to your concerns and how he reacts to them. I have a couple of friends whose husbands each developed close friendships with younger women they worked with - similar age to yours with similar age gaps. Platonic,but definitely emotional enmeshment. The husband enjoyed the attention of a younger woman and the woman enjoyed a male friendship with a sort of father figure. In each case the wife kicked off big style and made in clear that they needed to back it off. It took a while but they did, and are still both married. It seemed like a bit of a “last hoorah” by the men to still see themselves as the strong male who was still needed and appreciated, rather than “just dad”. Have you asked him if he would be genuinely happy for you to have such a good male friend?
You need a serious talk with him, explain again clearly that it is causing you serious pain and that if he cares for you and your relationship then he needs to back away from the friendship. Ask him if the friendship is more important to him than your marriage. Really point out the hard facts to him. And if he still continues his friendship you need to decide where to draw the line. Only you can decide where and what that line is.

You know what I'd do - I'd sit him down, and ask him to remember your wedding day. I'd point out that this woman was 4 years old when you said your vows. Remind him that she's young enough to be his daughter.

And then I'd ask him "Are you honestly saying, that if you can't have her in your life, that you will kill yourself? Despite having me, your wife of 24 years, and your lovely children, you are saying that unless you have her as a friend, then life is not worth living? Your wife and family aren't enough to live for? And then I'd be totally quiet, and let him actually give you an answer.

I'd also ask him how he'd feel if you had a secret male friend. Then I'd give him both barrels, and tell him he's making an absolute fool of himself, and if he wants to lose his house, his wife, his kids, half of his assets and half of his pension and everything he has built, then to fucking crack on, because those are the choices - it's her or you.

No begging involved. It's just having an adult, polite but assertive conversation with someone who apparently is not having an affair with your husband. His mid life crisis crush is not this young woman's fault, but if she's even remotely aware of it then she should step back and not encourage him. She might even be a freaked out and given the ick to be told that he is obsessed with her to the point where he's threatening to CS.

But as I said, her reaction will shed light on what's really going on. Ultimately if he's so obsessed that he's threatening to CS because the thought of life without her as a BFF is too much for him, then the OPs marriage is probably over anyway. If this young woman does back off, the OP's DH will probably be bereft and make a fool of himself by begging her and blurting out his true feelings. And he will hold it against the OP. But at least the OP will know exactly what part this woman has played in the breakdown of her marriage and whether or not she is being taken for a fool by them both.

OP when you met her, how did she seem in her interaction with you personally? Did she pay you much attention? Make an effort to bond with you like it was important for her to be friends with both of you as a couple?

Or was she pleasant but slightly aloof and pretty uninterested?

If he’s talking about suicide, it seems like he’s got other problems going on that he needs to get help for. People don’t consider that casually. What is lacking in his life that she fills a gap for that without that contact, he’d consider suicide? It’s a rubbish situation and I’m not excusing his behaviour, but maybe he needs to seek some help?

To threaten to take his own life? He'd really do that to his kids for a woman half his age that he's obsessed with? Something very wrong there.

This all sounds so similar to a situation a friend encountered. This was years ago during the time when meeting up via Friends Reunited (the early Facebook) was an amazing 'new' thing; catching up with old school friends etc.

One lady, who was married to a bloke I went to senior school with, made friends with one of her DH's old infant school friends (female)...all was fine for a while, then it seemed out of the blue that the DH was utterly obsessed with this old friend. He would meet her for anything...walks, drinks, meals, cinema, book clubs, pick her up for work, drop her home (at his and his families inconvenience) etc. She encouraged it whilst being married (unhappily) herself. Apparently nothing physical had occurred at all.

The wife cottoned on and just watched from the side lines for a while and when it really started to encroach on their own lives i.e. a family birthday event would occur and the DH would say 'I'm off to meet X for a walk', she decided enough was enough. Laid out an ultimatum and he sank into a deep depression, threatened suicide, quit work for a few months and it was all looking very very dodgy but it's all panned out 'ok' now. The lady and her DH are still together and OW was left in the wilderness.

It was all really fucking strange!!

Have you conducted these friendships in secret? Would you threaten suicide if asked to stop seeing one, of the opposite sex, after conducting an intense, secret, relationship with them for a year? Deleting all messages?

So he feels that strongly about this woman that he would be willing to kill himself over her? That's pathetic. I would make him choose you or her. Of course this is cheating, it's an emotional affair at the very least.
Stay strong, OP. You deserve so much better than this.

Is he usually this dramatic? Even if she is the love of his life, talking about suicide would be unusual?

It sounds awful and I agree with other posters , but I also wonder if he's well?

He then had the meltdown, and talked of ending it all

Oh come on OP, time to give your head a wobble. No coming back from this IMO. What an awfully vile tactic used to manipulate you because you told him that he had violated your boundaries by lying to you. All of this over a friendship with a woman! My DH wouldn’t even say that if I asked him to end his friendship with his childhood best friend. A screaming argument yes, talking of ending it all? Absolutely not! Unhinged.

It’s over.

I have a friend going through a similar situation including the age gap. Its an emotional affair. He has developed feelings for her and left his DW when she confronted him. A seemingly strong marriage ruined.

I'm sorry OP.

So youve asked him to cut contact and hes ignored you and chosen her i would say to him he needs to move out to decide what he wants because at the moment he wants both,

He’s threatening suicide??

It’s the secrecy that is the issue. I’m often bamboozled by the term and horror of ‘emotional affairs’ on here. Both DH and I have very important other people, where it ticks every box where Mumsnet screams ‘emotional affair’, gets super frothy and does the ‘leave, leave, leave’ chant.

In both cases they started as work husbands/wives. In DH’s case his friend/ex-work wife is a happily married lesbian who is truly revolted by the thought of a relationship with a man. My friend/ex-work husband is a married man, we have never had a physical relationship and never ever will. However, none of this was ever a secret from any spouses. After one of them left their workplace, DH and his friend tend to speak daily and also do social media stuff daily and physically go out occasionally. With my friend, after one of us left our workplace we speak/communicate online occasionally but meet up frequently and have had this close relationship for over 20 years. None of us are at all interested in meeting up together with the other persons spouse, why would we? None of us are planning to start a physical affair and none of us are planning to leave our spouses to run away together (whatever that would look like???). So, I guess I don’t always get the horror that the whole emotional relationship evokes on or off Mumsnet, if it is purely only that?

Threat suicide?

Your husband is not a good person