Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

@OneOliveOtter this is such a good point. My ex has these traits and once when our dc was little I had to speak to him about the food he was providing- it was utter crap, I’m not exaggerating, and when I said this he cried and said “You’re making me feel like a bad father” because it was dc’s diet and health I did have to say something, and it’s certainly not good parenting to feed your preschool child unmitigated junk, but it was saying it aloud that upset him- not the fact that he was indeed doing some poor parenting.

Agree with this. If he threatens suicide or talks about suicidal feelings involve the correct professionals, but either way that doesn't mean you need to continue in a marriage where one person is so devoted to an external party.

This

Make the call. He gets help or he owns his manipulative behaviour. He is either so far down the path making the wrong choices and gaslighting you he would rather die than own it (actual threat to himself) or he wants to continue without repercussion (manipulation).

You can't tell? Make the call.

Whilst I understand the idea of calling professionals and, by default, calling his bluff, I do worry that the professionals will be duty bound to take it seriously and his smoke-screen might then become more validated. It will be even harder than, to force him to focus on what he has done rather than this new dramatic made up ‘thing’ that is happening.

Unfortunately, professionals are not going to do one session with him and then declare that he’s making it all up to avoid facing up to what he’s done. Even if they secretly think that.

I would suggest taking a stance of ‘here are some numbers to call if you feel that you genuinely have suicidal feelings. I’m not equipped or inclined to support you through that because until you start being open and honest about what you’ve done, it’s impossible for me to have any kind of meaningful conversation with you’

@OneOliveOtter@MaryONette@HotHotHome - yep - what they can’t cope with I feel is the fact you no longer have them on a pedestal , and see them in a different light - and even if you stay , that the ‘100% in ‘ feeling that you will love them regardless of anything tends to stop somewhat and now kind of comes with conditions and expectations .

He told me that he sometimes thinks suicidal thoughts, but that's when he is 'inside his head' - and I know the hobby gives him peace of mind. He doesn't want to talk about it. I need to speak to a mutual friend, because I can't help him at the moment. He shuts it down. I am shocked, honestly. We've had friends pass in this way, and we've always been open about impact so this has been hard. He is deeply emotional about it, now it's in the open - I can see it.

He called me childish, because she is "just a friend", and it was laughable to listen to him downplaying everything. I'm overreacting, end of.

He methodically went through a list of reasons why it wasn't an emotional affair, and, even though I told him not to, he deleted their texts, because he was "sick of looking at them". I have some screenshots and I am glad for them, as hard as they are to read, he cannot deny they exist, the tone, frequency and time of day are all red flags. He also spoke to my Dad at the weekend, which made me furious - he's desperately trying to control the narrative. He can try for now - but when I'm ready to let the world know, he'll wish he hadn't.

I've taken a fair few snippets from this thread, because I feel the need to write things down, he is too good at gaslighting me and my fury and resolve disappear. Perhaps he can read it. I think it's easy for him to justify and reason when I speak, and I'm finding my words getting stuck in my throat and to look at him sometimes I wonder if I am actually going mad.

I know I am not.

He was supposed to leave the house yesterday, for a week minimum. He didn't because we started talking again. He will leave if I want him to. I just need to sort out the huge rock in my throat first.

Like some other posters have said - I don't have to rush. Ducks in a row.

At the moment the whole thing is on his terms: either you accept that he will continue with this relationship however he chooses to do it, or you will be responsible for his misery and any subsequent actions. He is acting like a spoilt teenager. Everything has to be seen from his point of view.

I can’t help thinking he needs a sharp shock, a dose of reality, to make him realise what he is in danger of throwing away. He needs to be told the stark alternatives - give her up or you will initiate separation/divorce - because he is the only one who can make that choice.

I'm so glad you're aware of the gaslighting.
You absolutely don't have to rush. You know the truth of it and keeping the screenshot- hard as they are - will remind you of the truth of it.
It's impossibly hard to reconcile the person who is doing this with the man you love and share a life with. Just trying to discern which is speaking to you in which moment is hard - which is why its so important to put you first through it all. Sending a hug

Exactly this. Hug is appreciated.

As he has spoken to your father, have your parents discussed the problem with you?
Sending hugs xx

@FourAndFive im so very sorry you are having to contend with all of this. Definitely do not rush. He has had a year to blur boundaries and cross the invisible lines that matter and count to you and should matter to him; you have had days and im glad you can see the gas lighting.

My husband has the nice guy image and he hated the mirror being held up and his behaviour being shown as not good and decent. You have lots of great advice on this thread and I was thinking about your post over the weekend and I do hope your ducks are in a row so you can do what you need to. Thats what felt unfair to me, everyone else could do what they pleased but when I did I was mad. Granted my ways of dealing with things have been big.

You are not mad.

@FourAndFive things have progressed so much since your initial post a few days ago. It shows how invested he really is by you putting a few boundaries down. He doesn’t sound like the man you describe in your early posts where I thought that maybe things could be salvaged. Extremely manipulative getting your dad involved, he’s become desperate.

It's not at all funny but I want to laugh at the predictability of all of these men. My husband also deleted the conversations for the same reason. Latterly the excuse became that he didn't want to look at something that had hurt me so much but actually I'm sure it was because he couldn't face what he had done and the storm he had created.

I really feel for you. I remember staring at my husband whilst he said these things and thinking that he was a total stranger. Honestly I felt like someone had taken over his body. It was a horrendous experience. He was initially sad and super eager to sort it all out and put it in a box and go back to being Mr Good Guy, the mad and a bit vicious, then withdrawn and shut down and finally, finally he accepted what he'd done and we could try to rebuild.

i don't think it properly hits you for a while though. My husband is very confused as I've become withdrawn this week, I feel so angry for the way I blamed myself when it happened to me when reading this thread has been so very enlightening.

I went through this with my now ex, over 20 years together. He had an emotional affair with a friend, and i was blindsided and fought for us. It ripped my heart out and absolutely battered my mental health. After 3 years we split at my instigation. When you are sat on the sofa and looking at your beloved partner thinking "I fucking hate you" i knew it was time to get out. He moved in with his emotional affair partner after 8 weeks.

But i rebuilt and have healed. As much as i missed ex when he first left (and it nearly killed me when i found out who he moved in with, heard it through friends he didnt have the balls to tell me himself) i knew i was better than being with him. I loved him but couldnt be with him anymore.

OP have you had chance to look at the Not Just Friends book? There’s a questionnaire near the beginning that helps establish whether or not it’s an emotional affair. Eye opening.

I wouldn't fight for such a man, unless I needed few more months of his joint income, whatever. Being put aside isn't nice...calling your father, even more weird , he thinks he's gaining leverage...I hope your father is a decent bloke and has your back

He’s deleted the messages because he doesn’t want to look at them (because they are evidence of his emotional affair). But he won’t agree to stop communicating with her? He’s just going to message her and then delete it so you can’t see what’s been said? That’s crazy talking. Either it’s innocent and no need to delete or it’s so inappropriate he can’t bare to look at them. He needs to pick a narrative because his actions don’t match his words.

I think you should ask him to leave — even temporarily. Like a pp said the more attention you give him the more he will twist everything and create his own narrative. You don’t need to justify your feelings on this. They are your feelings. A huge number of people on MN have validated that you are not being unreasonable. He doesn’t have to agree that you are allowed to feel the way you do. He has a choice as well. He can decide he wants this female friendship more than he wants to stop hurting you. Ask for space and stop the discussion until he’s willing to be accountable for his part in the breakdown of your relationship.

Since he spoke to you father do so yourself. It's highly unlikely he has told your father the true extent of his involvement with this woman. You also need to know what your father said to him.

He spoke to your dad?!? I hope your dad had your back and told gin how inappropriate this all is?

OP - have you said to him that if she is "only a friend" then they won't mind you coming along for that weekend that she's booked for them both?

I struggle to see much emotional intelligence on your DH's part - it sounds like he's aware of how upset this is making you but he STILL won't give up the "friendship". It's all about him and his needs - unless I am misconstruing your posts. Sadly, it indicates where his priorities lie.

Again, sorry that you're having to go through this. Be wary of the gaslighting. You know your mind.

You're not going mad. I know what it feels like to feel like that and please know YOU ARE NOT. You've had great advice on here but you need to do things in your time and you're doing really well, keep going. We're all cheerleading you on.

It gets weirder. He called your Dad?

That would be the last straw for me.

How dare he try to seed ideas about your unreasonableness.

What a manipulative toad he is. Caught on the hop and trying to smooth the path so he can continue on his merry way.

OP, I sense fear and back tracking.

Hes talked you out of it. He was supposed to leave. So do it.

Do you really want him around? Right now? Ever again?

Even your kids thought it was odd.

Can you imagine your own dad doing this?

It turns out you’ve got a very slippery selfish fish in your hands who won’t understand his errors unless he’s forced to look at them in the cold light of day.

he’s proved that much. I don’t see how else you play it. Either you succumb and surrender or you tell him to get lost for a bit. And that may be forever. Who knows.

But do you still want him? This new creature living in your home? He’s not who you thought he was is he?

You don’t need to rush. You probably do need to get him out for space though. You’re not really talking are you? You have laid down boundaries ( more than once now ), he ignores them, and gaslights you some more. The longer this continues, the more he fucks with your head and the less clear your thoughts will be. Realistically, and understandably you probably don’t want him to go. You love him, you think that he might see sense, and of course you’ll be worried he’ll go to her. He won’t ( see sense) unless he gets such a shock he’s actually frightened of losing it all. Brutally he might be beyond this, and he might go to her anyhow.

The more you write the worse he seems. I said before he is so far ahead of you , a good year anyhow. He doesn’t need to have a written plan for that to be the case. He is building a narrative around this already, and involving your family. One that could easily play out so in a year’s time he’s shacked up with his girlfriend, having told the world how your irrational behaviour broke the marriage …

Whatever you want going forward it will be best achieved by you getting real now. It might be enough to shock him, it might not. What it will do is give you the space you need to start processing it yourself without him floating about like a drama queen making it all about him/ his feelings/ his misery. You are already and continue to get sucked in otherwise.He’s exploiting your love for him to force you to accept the unacceptable. I know it’s painful and frightening but get him out for a period of time. You are far more likely to regret not doing something now than you are doing it. Take control of what you can. Let him do what he will, and you take the time to decide what you want regardless.

I find it very odd that he called your dad. That's him going over your head and trying to set the narrative and that would really piss me off. What's his relationship with your parents like? What did he say?

Nothing forces anyone to come clean or face their own bullshit. That is not what third party professionals can do. But OP can’t take the risk of his making an attempt or, god forbid, completing an attempt as she loves him and there are children to be considered.

A true covert narcissist will love the attention, of course, and it will harden his delusional sense of victimhood. He may relish the attention and the public shift from “highly moral family man” to helpless victim of unspecified “mental health breakdown” but if he does I can assure you he will get there on his own whether OP reports him or not. He may opt in to the “sick man” role because it enables him to back out of the romance or because it enables him to back out of the marriage. Both are solutions to his problem that getting sectioned may facilitate. But getting sectioned won’t bring him to his senses. It just helps him save face.