Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

Yes they think love means being able to forgive anthing they do, maybe that's why the truth never comes out with these types, because to them it doesn't matter. The truth would make them no less entitled.

Many of them have a screwed up idea of love.

Either wanting to get back to you thinking they’re 100% amazing…or rewriting history, making you the villain, and talking about the hard time you put them through while you were ‘overreacting’. Usually while still holding onto some remaining secrets they think you’ll never find out.

It’s startling to realise there’s a ‘script’ for this kind of behaviour. It can feel like you’re dealing with a relatively unique situation when it’s happening to you.

Hope you’re doing okay OP.

I've found this entire thread hugely helpful although it course I wish it wasn't at the expense of another wonderful woman experiencing this kind of behaviour from a husband whom she loves and is devoted too.

My husband actually had thoughts of ending our marriage during the time his inappropriate closeness to another woman was revealed. I remember feeling completely blindsided and confused as to why he'd want to do that. It was very clear that the woman he had developed this with was using him as a kind of ego boost or revenge for her own husbands indiscretions and it had never become anything sexual in nature, nothing explicit or romantic really just slow boundary crossing. His words now make much more sense; he felt we'd be better of if he lived separately etc. I thought at the time this was a me problem and I was so wrapped up in blaming myself for not being there for him; even though in reality he had abandoned me at a time where I needed him. Likely because as a busy mother and with a demanding career, I didn't have the luxury of mooning around falling apart and had to get on with things unlike her who 'needed' him.

I now see that actually he wanted to get away from me or make me stop talking about it as he couldn't handle the mirror being held up to his own behaviour. It threatened his 'goodness' and he couldn't handle it. It was easier in his mind to just remove himself from us entirely than to face up to the fact that he'd hurt me intensively and in a way that I can't ever forget. It wasn't me that the was the problem, it was my seeing his flaws and calling out how selfish he had been that was too much to handle.

Midlife crisis: this is the script! | Mumsnet

I do want to add, my husband did this, right down to saying he wasn’t sure if he could cut contact. Fortunately for me I could be certain it wasn’t physical as they had never actually met, but it was enough for him to move out for a month and get counselling and medication.

the day I had him pack up his stuff and leave officially, was the day he finally saw through the fog of his depression. He has been the perfect gentleman ever since (a few years now, not just months). But it was a lot of work, he had counselling, and got medicated.

however the difference I see here, is your husband is doing it whilst happy, mine was going through a Covid driven breakdown, and the death of a parent, so there’s a bit of an easier path for me to be able to show some compassion for what was happening.

His behaviour was inexcusable, but he made a clear decision and I can tell how much he regrets that time. Only you know whether your husband will be the same, but he has to cut off all contact and choose your relationship, not be half in and half out.

This was exactly my situation (I wrote about further up thread) and it was only reading posts on MN in the aftermath that made me realise my situation wasn't unique to me (which is how it felt as he played victim) but part of his 'entitled mindset' script. It's what helped clarify my decision at the time.

I know if both my parents were still alive I'd have been told to suck it up 'For the Greater Good' of the family unit. That is was fine for me to squash all my emotions deep down all whilst he carried on with his behaviour. It was so damaging now I look back. Awful.

My grass is greener in some areas of my life (mainly within myself, my spirit, how I feel) but a different colour in terms of financial security etc. But would I go back on that decision? No, not now I'm 3.5 years on.

I think there's a lot to be said for 'biding our time' and duck sorting before rushing into ending a long marriage and the fear of unknown is greater than the fear of staying.

It's down to how @FourAndFive's DH behaviour is from now on really.

Thank you for sharing - that is so, so helpful. I'm sorry you're in this nasty little club too. The last statement resonates.

There was more talk about suicidal feelings at the weekend - I'll try and update properly if I can, later.

He is a pathetic middle aged man obsessed with a 28 year old woman. Gross.

Sorry, pressed send before I finished my comment. Threatening suicide over this is so, so bizarre. Sadly even the ‘nice’ ones are capable of things we as women can’t even imagine. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

@FourAndFivemore suicidal talk? He clearly doesn’t think you’ve taken the last threads seriously

I would be calling your GP. Explain to them that your h is expressing suicidal thoughts because he wants to carry on seeing a 28 year old woman.

I would really bring this out in the open. How embarrassing for him. What a dickhead. Sorry. But he really is. Cringe.

I hope you kick him to the kerb.

Threats not threads

As soon as he starts making suicidal threats I'd call the GP, take him to emergency, or call an ambulance. If he needs help he should get it. If he's bluffing, he'll soon figure out that isn't a good course of action. I have a personal policy of treating any threat as serious.

He really can’t handle the cognitive dissonance of the disparity between his self image and nice married man life and the reality of his pursuit of another woman. I think you have to take his threats seriously both because they could be serious and because they can’t be handled safely “in house.” Call whatever emergency hotline exists for help as soon as he starts and just say to him “this is for your own good.” If he is just using the threat manipulatively he will stop. If he has really frightened himself he will accept treatment.

It doesn’t change the cold equation that you fave, OP. But I think going public will take a lot of the air out if his balloon and take some of the pressure off you. Just be matter of fact. “DH you have put us in an untenable situation and that makes you feel bad. Me too! You can either end the relationship and work on the marriage or leave. If you are having overwhelming feelings of self harm you need to see your GP. That’s what I am doing. “

He can’t be allowed to act and believe that he is the wronged party here.

That he only mentions suicide when asked to stop contact highlights these for what they are, manipulative threats.

If cutting contact with a friend he has known for an objectively short time really would trigger him taking his own life, hurting his children and taking him away from his family, best friends etc then he is too far into his obsession and you should leave him anyway. Why would you want to stay with a man who says their very reason for being is so tied up in another woman?

The suicide threats are a red flag. He isn't threatening to self harm because he is losing a friendship; but because his public persona of Nice Guy is at risk. He can't end the friendship without losing face.
Losing face is such a bad threat to him that death would be preferable. That's a potential threat to your safety, take it seriously.
Consider the possibility you are married to a covert narcissist.

Dear op, don't waste more time. Call his GP, parents, best friends and a welfare check on him. This is shit and it's not your role to cover it

Seems like things have probably come to a head this weekend when you’ve set boundaries down. I know it’s hard as you are trying to keep it all contained if DC are home. And calling for police / ambulance when he makes these threats would be scary for them. It might be time to sit your DC down for a chat, due to their age they prob know what’s going on anyway but don’t want to upset you by mentioning it. Sorry you’ve had a tough and shit weekend x

Yes this is very true. Shame and loss of face is an existential threat to a narcissist. If you read up on their response to the “life threat” they experience when their grandiose sense of self is falsified or pricked publicly they can self harm or harm others with surprising lack if remorse. Please be careful. Involve others to ease him down from his pedestal safely (give him some space to retreat) while you protect yourself, your children, and your financial situation.

I'm remembering more now, I think I'd blocked so much of it out at the time. Although my husband never overtly said he'd commit suicide, he did leave the house at random times to go on long walks and talked about how things could never be the same ever again. Understandly I was very confused at the time and incredibly worried for him. I remember ringing him on one of those times to ask if he was safe. I truly felt he wasn't and on reflection, I feel so angry that he made his betrayal of our relationship and overstepping of boundaries something that I had to worry about and worry for him.

At the time though, it is very hard to see through the fog. You're in shock probably and he's had much longer to formulate his ideas and to hamster away why this is all totally okay and fine. You were on the back foot from the start. In my experience, the only way to regain some control is to get off the wheel. The more attention you give him and the more you talk, the more of a focus he becomes and the more he convinces himself that it's you that's the problem and if he could just make you understand, if you could just acquiesce, everything could go back to normal. But it can't because you've seen this selfishness now and you've seen this flaw in his character. I advise saying very little to him. I advise leaving the house as much as possible. Don't be drawn into conversations; put your facts and boundaries on the table and then take this into the real world.

My husband was horrified when I told a close friend. He knew her husband and she was also a mutual acquaintance of his inappropriate friendship woman. I remember him telling me how embarrassed he felt and how other people were now going to think badly of him. As many others have said, the shattering of his good man image was unbearable. The saying he should leave it we'd be better off was his way of punishing himself and his anguish was making me ill and so I had to disconnect for my own wellbeing. Immediately, things improved and the fog started to lift for me.

As I said before, when I started taking practical steps and taking his threats clearly, things changed for the better.

Im really so sorry you're experiencing this too. It is so crushing. Tell someone, it is not your shame to bear.

When I showed my exh that I had found out everything - all his dirty secrets - it was on a day when he was driving 4 hours to see his dad. He vanished en route and I had his dad calling, worried. I told him what his son had done, and messaged his affair partner - who had no idea I knew of her existence until then - and told her he should contact his dad, who was worried.

He turned up eventually. Don't know what he was doing in that time, but even though he was an expert at convincing himself he was entitled to act as he did, I hope that in that moment, he realised that his behaviour was public knowledge, and was ashamed. I hope he stopped his car and sat and cried like a child caught stealing sweets. If he didn't, frankly, he's stupider or more heartless than I thought.

Agree. You don’t have to protect him by keeping his dirty secrets.

@FourAndFive , more threats of suicide mean you have to take this seriously and understand this is beyond your pay grade. He needs to be evaluated ASAP. He very well could be manipulating you but still need serious psychiatric help.

You need to contact your version of mental health crisis team or the police.

I would have called the police immediately. Here, they get taken to the ER, someone sits with them every minute monitoring until the psychiatrist sees them. It usually ends in a hospital stay if a valid threat. If it's being used for manipulation, the person usually says so before being taken to the hospital. But that means it's out in the open that they are using threats of suicide to manipulate someone into doing what they want them to do.

But you are too close to judge which it is or both. And you have kids in the home. There is a level of danger here.

The suicidal feelings talk is almost certainly a smokescreen. It's a great fucking distraction isn't it? Yes yes, I know you want to talk about me breaking your trust and having an inappropriate relationship with another women, but I can trump and swerve that conversation because 'Suicidal Feelings'.

Sorry to be brutal (and genuine apologies for anyone who has suffered from suicide), but honestly? I call bullshit. If you think about it, short of having a disease or a bereavement it's about the only thing that can conveniently be More Important and More Devastating than what you want to talk about. And you can't fact-check it. Handy.

I hope you called 999 and also his parents and best friend. ‘Dh says he’s thinking about hurting himself, I’m not best placed to judge as it’s oddly coincidental timing with my asking him to end a friendship with another woman that has gotten far far too close for a married man but if he does mean it I’m here to support, I’ve called 999 and they’ve spoken to him and I need to let you know . He doesn’t want to see a gp so I would value your efforts in getting him there.

You will never be sorry you involved mental health specialists and outsiders. He will be embarrassed. But he either can’t change so is at risk, or won’t change so you aren’t burning any bridges.