Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

I am in the car (not driving). One of my favourite songs "Jolene" is playing. I still love this song but I now think that Dolly should let him go, because he is not worth it. This thread has changed me.

Great post, @pikkumyy77.

@pikkumyy77, interesting post.

"These highly moral men (as other posters have said upthread) are holders of a most rigid and fragile masculine self image. In the moment that OP challenged him to drop the EA/gf the mirror that he preens himself in (which includes gf, OP, his children, the other hobby friends) shattered.
Everyone has a narcissistic core and everyone’s sense of self and safety can suffer a narcissistic wound. For him he felt, in the moment, that he could not endure the loss of his admiring gf, his hobby friends knowing he had made a mistake, and the loss of respect from his wife and children, and if course the return as a wounded bird to his formerly perfect life. No longer the admired family man, no longer everyone’s hero. He just couldn’t tolerate the shame."

The thing is, that shame can be dangerous. Turned inward, suicide, turned outward, DV and worse. He's got the rigid " good guy" self image and self righteousness that can go real bad combined with shame.

I’m not sure why there’s been derogatory comments towards the 28 year old in this thread, calling her a gold digging spinster etc. She might not even be interested in him!

I’m in my 20s and as an anecdote, there’s been awkwardness when I have been polite to older male colleagues but they seemed to think it could be more. Personally I distance myself each time I feel colleagues were crossing a line - I certainly wasn’t doing anything to encourage their behaviour and wouldn’t want to be dragged into their marital drama.

I don’t know why 40+ year old men assume 20-somethings are interested in them, as the reality is we’re not. Old(er) men are not desirable. Most young adults want to date other young adults and build a life together - not complete all your firsts with someone that is you dad’s age, who has done all the major things before with their actual wife.

I don’t think she’s relevant in this tbh. I think regardless of this woman, you have an issue with your husband. I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who resorts to suicide threats after you tell him that you feel uncomfortable with something he has done. Where do you go from there? You either follow up the suicide threat by taking it seriously and informing medical professionals, or you just act like he didn’t mean it and lose all respect for him.

💙

@ChangingWeight she has booked accommodation for them!

I don't think she is innocent

This is excellent. Having read through this thread and seen how many of us have had such similar experiences, I’m sure it resonates with a lot of us.

It sounds platonic to me. I’ve had lots of male friends for decades, and not had sex with any of them. 🤷‍♀️

Not everything is about sex. 🙄

It sounds platonic to me. I’ve had lots of male friends for decades, and not had sex with any of them. 🤷‍♀️

Did you frequently threaten to kill yourself at the thought of not being in contact with them any more?

Rarely the case, sadly. Not with such total obsession

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here and but I think she the 28 yr oldis encouraging this as she is booking the accommodation and usually that is so the wife (op) will not find out. I don't think that is innocent at all but I think he is harmless as he is married with a wife and kids. Until it's not harmless

Moral people don't do emotional affairs. They continue to control themselves and plough through life, fully focused on the family.

Chapel Hart did a song called “You can have him Jolene”!😄

Curious and following. Thought the other day about Ginger and PleaseNoteMe

@ChangingWeight , while I agree that 'gold-digging spinster' is not fair, the accepting gifts from a married man, and booking an event together, which includes an overnight stay is out of order. Why the heck did her relatives not say to her that it was inappropriate?

@Boomer55 , do you book overnight events with your married male friends?
Do they text you behind their wives' backs? Do they frequently buy you gifts?
Do they tell their wives their lives wouldn't be worth living without you?

You should probably RTFT, or at least filter to OPs updates.

The issue isn’t that it’s necessarily about sex. It’s entirely possible that it is, but even if that hasn’t happened, OPs husband is still behaving appallingly.

Happening to way more people who dare to be honest as you are.

Who don't dare.

Sadly I also have experience of this and I hope my experience can help you. My husband didn't go as far as the anguish your DH has expressed but it did go far enough. My husband said all kind of things including 'Why can't I be allowed to have female friends?', 'I get on so much better with women than men don't you understand?!' and 'I've finally found someone I can confide in and you don't like it'. He'd never had a single female friend in the 15 years we've been together... said female friend and subsequent friend were both attractive women, the former unhappy in her marriage due to her husbands infidelity (maddening at the time as she was very much an equal participant in the blurred boundaries...) and the latter newly divorced.

I think for the latter, she genuinely had no feelings towards him at all but he certainly enjoying being her white knight and listening to her tears as he supported her through it. The first one was a result of a shared dramatic experience and they slowly became more enmeshed. My eldest daughter brought me his phone to change the programme on it and a message from her popped up. There was nothing sexual in their messages but he was confiding in her and sharing his feelings and thoughts, something he wasn't doing with me. I'd already started to sense something wasn't right as there was some distance between us suddenly and a friend of mine had seen them out at a local attraction with all of our kids, he'd told me very last minute and i said I felt it was odd but he was very angry about that.

I got the whole gambit, it started as a very incensed rant about how controlling I was being and how he had always preferred female friends and then escalated to saying she understood him and she was a kind and warm person. I also got told I would really like her and we had so much in common... Honestly it was sickening to hear. He also talked extensively about how she was supporting him through a difficult time and understood him. The saddest part is that whilst they were building this inappropriate relationship where he allowed her to mock me essentially with sly little digs about how little I did at home (that was one of the worst parts, as a mother herself she should have seen through that bullshit!) I was dealing with having been through an abortion, all alone. My mother had also died recently. It was horrendous and like talking to a stranger.

He then had a bit of a breakdown where he went off for lots of walks and time alone and shut down. He kept repeating that he was a nice guy and a nice person and he wouldn't accept my version of him. Having read lots of the wise words above, I now see that he was likely having a similar crisis of realising that the person he thought he was- a loving selfless family man and pillar of the local
community- was totally at odds with his behaviour.

The second time was shortly after, he said he was supporting her through a tough time and couldn't see how ridiculous that was when I pointed out she had her own friends and family and didn't need him at all.

I had tried all sorts to make him see what he was doing and eventually, I gave up. I started to seek advice legally and financially, I got practical about where I would live etc. When he found that out he was gobsmacked. He couldn't believe how serious it had got. By that point I wasn't fighting or crying anymore, I was being cordial with him but leaving the house when the girls were in bed and doing things for myself. I would sit in the garden or go for walks and I essentially removed myself from him, no more hugs or chats or anything. I wasn't unkind or rude but I was cold. He lasted less than a week before getting really upset. He said that it had sunk in that he had crossed the line and that he couldn't believe himself. That he had convinced himself it was all fine and he denied finding either of attractive. He grudgingly admitted he liked the attention. And feeling needed by them. His need for external validation became very clear.

I explained to him at the time that my children, my husband, my family and my friends get the best of me. The rest of the world gets what's left of me. He was letting the world get the best of him and leaving the dregs for us and it was so totally backwards. I explained that I care what the people above think and to a lesser extend, my workplace, but everyone else's opinion of me matters little to me.

We are still together, he had therapy. Things are better and we've began to rebuild, there have been hard lows along the way.

For me, my view of him has fundamentally changed. It was naive but I truly thought he was better than that. I honestly put him on such a pedestal, I thought he was incredible and we could get through anything together. Now I am much more pragmatic. I no longer know if we'll be together forever. I see his weaknesses and they are impossible to unsee. I can't get over than when things were tough between us, before I knew about these inappropriate friendships, I did everything I could. I listened to podcasts, organised date nights, had therapy and read books. He however looked elsewhere and I will never forget that.

I don't think this has to be the end of your relationship OP but I think it will never be the same. I've chosen to stay in my marriage because I love my husband very dearly, he was my childhood sweetheart but I can't pretend it's not changed things for me. I strongly advise you take the above approach, go cordial and cold and get advice. A sharp shock is honestly the only remedy I think.

This has really been playing on my mind. There are so many strong women on here and the support here is excellent.
Take your time @FourAndFive and work out what is right for you. You have control over what happens. It’s really awful that he’s so horrible but at least you know and you can make decisions when you are ready. Feeling incredibly sad is totally understandable. I’m sending you strength and positive vibes.

Having seen this unfold a number of times, often the shiny new woman loves the attention and knows that he’s acting like a fool but it’s an ego boost for her.

We’ve had it recently at work and it’s just really horrible as you know the wife must be so upset about it.

The woman involved has left my school now and he’s mooning about but they still meet up because they are “such good friends”. He and his wife went to her birthday party recently and it must just be so awful. His wife is really lovely but she’s not young and shiny and new and fun ALL the time. I know she’s had mental health issues and I wonder how much of that is down to her husband’s behaviour.

Do you prioritise them over your husband

I explained to him at the time that my children, my husband, my family and my friends get the best of me. The rest of the world gets what's left of me. He was letting the world get the best of him and leaving the dregs for us and it was so totally backwards. I explained that I care what the people above think and to a lesser extend, my workplace, but everyone else's opinion of me matters little to me.

I think the above, by @OneOliveOtter , is what so many people starting down the emotional affair path / midlife crisis crush / etc just don't get or want to get.

@Happyhettie Poor wife, I'm sure her mental health will be down to him.

The thing is until you reach the level of not wanting their company anymore is the point up until it will still hurt.

Yes we women are devastated and go on to be disgusted, we agonise in losing our best friend, we wanted them to prioritise us forever, to be their confidant, only when love is prized appart can you see how incredibly boring and dull they actually are.

In many cases these 'interesting' married men who need new best friends are unimaginitive, insecure, weirdly fucked up individuals who arn't real, they lie about everthing, to themselves,their wives, their children just everyone, nothing is real.

One day you will get to the point where it doesn't matter and just thank god you don't have to hear the shite that rolls out of their hypocritical mouths.

I mean it’s that you wouldn’t wish to run off with a 48 year old man in your 20s and you distance yourself but it’s naive to think that it doesn’t happen. It does. All too often. There are women of all ages, including young women who do go after older men, who do get a kick out of ‘taking’ someone else’s husband and who do not distance themselves from married/older men.

Years ago I worked in a call centre. 250 people of various ages. One girl of 22 was telling anyone who would listen in our team how she had ‘won’ because the 52 year old married father of 3 had left his wife and as I recall it was because between her and the poor wife there was ‘no contest’. Men love having their egos massaged and there are plenty of young women eager and ready to be the masseuse.

I often think of Ginger. I hope she’s doing well