Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

But this is being presented differently by him I bet.

This ow could be a twin partner in sport which has become competetive, mixed tennis or something, she could be the singer in his band, or a duo etc.

This hobby is clearly important and he is presenting her as essential, maybe she is but he seemed to be able to do it before she came along so..

This is a battle of wills, he think's he's fighting for independance whereas op is fighting for the marriage.

Clearly he's already destroyed their relationship, what an idiot, all those years just crumbling

@CelerySticker identical situation to me . Only difference was I found out 10 years after it had ended - like you still married, but have never felt 100% the same, it just snuffed something out .

Is it possible he has never heard of an emotional affair?

I’m not sure if this has been asked already (I haven’t RTFT but read all your posts OP) but if he thinks of an affair only as being physically intimate he might not even realise himself how inappropriate his feelings have become.

He might be really deluding himself. His threat to end his life speaks to mental instability whether he meant it or not.

So in a nutshell:

-lots of texting between each other
-He claims he cares about her deeply
-will commit suicide if he doesn’t go to this event with this lady
-Now secretive with his phone

I have many close friends but I’ve never done any of the above.

Your DH doesn’t just ‘care’ about this woman. He’s falling in love.

Really sorry OP. Totally sucks.

Sending you all the strength and love ❤️

OP so sorry to hear what an unbelievably difficult position you are in. I got divorced from my first husband (totally different reasons to you) but what I learnt from this was that I wish I hadn't been such a pushover in the beginning, thinking more about him and less about myself - in the end the result will be what it will be (whether you stay together or split or something else)BUT what you can do is take control now, you have been given great advice on this thread on possible options on how to go forward. Think about yourself, trust your intuition and thoughts, and know that somewhere down the road, you will be happy and this will have passed.Sending you much love

The more I talk my psychologist friend about it, the more I am learning how many women are in the same situation as we are, not feeling the same about partner but not feeling it's bad enough to leave.

Are you set on staying now, or are you also secretly planning your escape?

He will eventually get bored with her.

I am afraid your DH is obsessed and maybe part of it is a midlife crisis. Maybe she makes him feel 20 yrs younger and he’s obsessed with that feeling, rather than with her.
When I was 21 (and single) I had a lot in common with a man at work, in his 30s who had a family.
We liked the same music, comedy and had a laugh at work as friends. One day, he said he had tickets for a gig and said DW didn’t want to go. Stupidly, naively, I went thinking I was doing him a favour by not having to go alone and I was being a friend. Then he started sending messages outside of work, jokey at first, then flirty when I presume he’d had a drink. Then on NYE, a message crossed the line. Then his DW found his message and called me from his phone and I felt like a stupid little girl but reassured her nothing physical had happened. Work felt awkward so I got a new job a couple of months later.
You need to talk to his friend and find out what he’s said and what they’ve been doing and tell her you’re uncomfortable with their relationship. Get her perspective and go from there.
Then talk to him. Say you need couples therapy and if he refuses or says you don’t need it and carries on seeing her, you’re done I’m afraid.

I once, many years ago, worked with a young woman who an older man in another department had the most massive romantic crush on. She was quite immature for her age, quiet, and she didn't seem to realise what we could all see was going on. She knew he was married and assumed that this older colleague's attentions were just those of an older friend. He'd take her to lunch and buy her little gifts and she seemed to be unaware of how odd and awkward it all was, because he was just being her friend. She talked about him as if he was her father: there was no way she wanted sexual involvement. These days I wonder whether she was ND and didn't pick up on the cues we could all read clearly. It became increasingly clear to those of us observing that he was having some kind of mid-life MH crisis.

Eventually, presumably when he declared his undying love for her, she was horrified, handed in her notice and walked into another, better job at a rival company. She may have taken out a restraining order on him, because he apparently tried to bombard her with flowers and love tokens there. He then had what in those days was termed a nervous breakdown and I heard quite a long time later that his marriage had blown up.

OP, you've read the messages your DH sent his crush. Could she just think he's a rather eccentric, very nice man with a bit of a crush on her, but very happily married so nothing to feel concerned about? I mean, he's an awful lot older than her, so she may regard him as more of a father figure than anything else. If she was actively involved with him, with hopes of 'stealing' him from you, she'd have had to have an immense amount of chutzpah to meet you with her family in tow. I can't imagine that any 28-year-old would be attracted by the idea of 20+ year-old stepchildren.

I'm also reminded that a psychotherapist friend used to use the phrase 'Nice guys wreck lives' to describe men who publicly seem lovely and who appear to have their wives on pedestals, but are often destructive privately within their relationship. They use niceness as a weapon. I can imagine the pair of you going to couples counselling and him saying 'But I make her breakfast, I do the cleaning, I'm always complimentary about the way she looks, I gave her diamond earrings for Christmas' as a get-out for his bad behaviour.

In your situation I might take a couple of weeks to get my ducks in a row. I'd gather all the financial stuff I might need if things go pear-shaped and quietly get some legal advice on the best way to manage a separation and possibly a divorce. He has been doing things behind your back and I wouldn't feel it was underhand to do something similar. I'd also get him into couples counselling as swiftly as possible: definitely in person and not online, because I think it's vital that a therapist can see the micro interactions and body language that go on between people and not just a couple of talking heads. Perhaps a couples therapist asking the same questions you're asking would make him stop and think for a bit. Good luck with it all. When you've trusted someone implicitly for so many years it's a hard thing to get past something like this, which is so huge but which he wants to pretend is nothing at all.

It's worrying that he's mentioned he thinks the children would like her, almost as if he's imagining them having a relationship with her if she became his partner. So you'd slot into some sort of sisterly role, pleased for him in his new relationship? It honestly sounds like he's so far gone he believes he wouldn't be destroying his family.

Most likely they are planning to sleep together on the trip. That's why he had the tantrum at the idea of not going.

Hello OP, I have just read through your posts and couldn’t not stop by and tell you what a fantastic person you are. Your daft DH is going to lose everything for a midlife crisis if he isn’t careful. Men are so stupid, not all men, but a sizeable number of them. Wishing you calm seas and fair winds.

OP - I just wanted to say I'm so, so sorry. My DP is similar, with a very strong sense of morality. But the vulnerability with that is that they find it hard to see when boundaries are being crossed, or when they are doing something wrong or unfair.

And it was that sense of morality makes them attractive both to us, and to others. Every strength comes with a vulnerability.

It is sometimes, until you find that 'Keith' is really a newly-single woman called Kelly, and 10 years younger than him.

I hadn't heard of emotional affair before I joined MN, but I knew they existed.

It can be so tempting to give benefit of the doubt…but even if he hasn’t heard of emotional affairs, he does know that what he’s doing isn’t okay. Feigning innocence seems to be a common theme with men that do this.

My DH tried to claim that he didn’t know what “sliding into DMs” meant, and that he was just being friendly when he sent the “innocent” message (which could have been posted publicly in response to this woman’s post, if he so desperately wanted to comment) that began the private conversation that started it all.

He knew exactly what he was doing: we’d talked about it long before he’d sent that message, and he’d even heard the phrase two weeks earlier when I’d received a DM with just “hey” from a man I didn’t know, who was connected to some mutual friends and was clearly in a relationship. My friends and I had been rolling our eyes about men trying to start a private conversation with women outside of their relationships, and saying we felt sorry for his girlfriend. The message my DH sent had been well beyond the ‘hey’ I’d received, but he was hoping his wide-eyed naivety act would make me back down, so he could carry on believing he was a great guy with good morals, rather than having to admit he fancied this woman and had deliberately intended to signal this and catch her attention.

I totally agree that he’s likely deluding himself to some extent. But he does know how inappropriate it is - he wouldn’t have hidden it otherwise.

If he loves you he needs to realise what his behaviour is doing to your relationship. Have you asked him to go to marriage counselling?

I am really sorry OP to hear about this situation but I am also not surprised. I am finding myself more and more disappointed with men these days including the 'good' ones. I was out the other night and sat next to a group of middle aged men on a night out. They started talking to a small group of young women, and their starting banter was about their kids' A-level results and how proud they were. They were very flirty and buying the girls drinks. Part of me thought it might be harmless but then half of them took their wedding rings off!!!!!!! I was alone waiting for friends so I was just people watching and to be honest I wish I hadn't as it made me feel yucky and so sorry for their wives and families.

I ended it after 37 years (age 59). Hardest thing I ever did but I've discovered a whole new sense of self. Close friends said it was like I had a personality transplant after my recovery year. A lightness of spirit, confidence and not so 'tight' in personality.

I don't want to derail the thread as I've read every post and @FourAndFive is experiencing a situation that I found myself in a few times over the decades. I let his obsessions pass and it's only in later years I found out some became affairs.
But he played 'nice guy', so loyal to me so couldn't leave bla bla bla.
Until the last one.
A mutual new friend and he became her knight in shining armour.
Turned into an 18 month long affair and on D Day when I finally got into his phone and got proof (as those of you have been through this know he denied all with continuous lying and gaslighting) and my gut deep down just said 'No more'.

But we got on very well, still were intimate and had built up a comfortable life together, children and grandchildren had just started to come along.

Basically he wanted to be both 'selves'. Mr Nice Husband long time married and Mr Delicious/ Irresistible. Classic Cake Eating.

Chump Lady's book saved my emotional life and Esther Perel gave me the intellectual interpretation.

And now 3.5 years on? He cheated on the OW after a year or so and she dumped him.

The big thing is he has these strong feelings that have come from this secret friendship with hobby woman and even if @FourAndFiveshuts it down in the various ways suggested on this thread, he's had a taste of this feeling and it's like a drug. He may do it again and again as my XH did.

I am so sorry so many of you have experienced this

I've only read your posts OP so sorry if I'm repeating others' comments.

My exh also thought he was a Good Man. His favourite response was "You KNOW I would never say/do that!" as if I was a horrible person for suspecting him. Your husband's comment "how has it come to this, when all I've got is a friend I care about" sounds similar: trying to make you feel as if you are in the wrong for accusing an innocent man. The same with him threatening suicide, putting him in the role of the poor victim, not you. My ex also had to convince himself that I was in the wrong (justifying his affair) by painting me as cold-hearted, unloving and narcissistic to his AP, as well as claiming that we were sexless, like brother and sister, and that I was about to leave the country (all bollocks). This need to preserve their own self image as a Good Man despite having an affair causes massive cognitive dissonance, and they believe their own story themselves.

I came across my exh's email password by chance and snooped, out of desperation - he was refusing to leave and accusing me of being cruel to the kids when I said I would leave with them.

He'd been having a full-blown affair and totally taking the piss for 18 months. I also found old emails from another, older affair. The woman from the older affair had visited our house for a party. I remembered it well as he had been so overexcited he'd forgotten the party was in my honour and told the invitees it was for his birthday.

In one email to the new AP, he said he wanted her to come to our house for a party as he'd find it exciting, her being there and none of us knowing who she really was.

I also thought he was a good man. I no longer believe in the concept of good and bad people.

I'm an impatient person.. and it may be that other's on this thread will give you much better advice to play the long game... and it really depends on the path you ultimately want to take

You don't want him and her to do an overnight stay for this hobby. - tell him that is non negotiable.. You've co-operated with his hobby requirements but he is now taking the piss.

He's still being resistant and secretive... I'd want to bring the whole thing out into the open. They would either have to declare themselves or stop it, but they wouldn't be able to force you into joining in with their pretence (if that is truely what it is) any longer. They'd have to be accountable to all who would know. So I guess I'm saying I wouldn't let them use me as a cover for whatever it is anymore.

However, I must stress that I don't know how much resentment this approach would generate with your DH, which might be a problem if you want to save the marriage.. or are hoping he will get over his infatuation.

At this point...with him hiding his phone under the duvet having just had a conversation with you about this, I would probably phone /meet her myself, let her know how much you disapprove and ask what she thinks she's doing. Then she would either back off or carry on... and you'd know where you stand with both of them... because at the moment I can see this situation is torture for you.. and they don't seem to.

Bring print outs of particular conversations if she wants to deny that her texts to him.. or the number of them are inappropriate.

I'd be done with playing nice and meeting her family etc.. and accepting it is just a friendship. And being an understanding hobby wife. If he went ahead and booked the event... I'd be asking him to stay elsewhere with parents or something... it would be hard to deal with the emotions created by the situation anyway.. but at least you wouldn't have to watch it going on under your nose.

However, this very much depends on whether you want to continue the marriage or end it and not knowing that I don't know if it might be better to play the long game.. Others will probably have better advice.

Another one who's been through this pile of shit, from the "You don't want me to have friends!" line, through threatening suicide, to actually cancelling a holiday with me so that he could go to a convention with the "friend".

I think that sometimes these men find the feeling of slowly and illicitly stoking the flames, whilst having wifey back at home getting tea ready, almost as intoxicating as the "new friend". The process is a lot of the thrill. And if that's the case, even if you manage to shake off this one, it will happen again.

I'm so sorry, OP, but I tend to agree with everyone else who says your marriage is over. And he's an utter idiot to think he can pretend otherwise.

Actually OP @Pluvia 's advice in the last para is probably the better way to play it. Seeing a counsellor would at least make him face his side of the situation and realise that pretending its nothing isn't realistic. (even if it is just a friendship...it sounds like he'd like it to evolve)

I think the suicide threat was “genuine” if by that we mean impulsive, unthought out, and in the moment sincere. I.e he didn’t plan it or use it purely as a manipulation.

These highly moral men (as other posters have said upthread) are holders of a most rigid and fragile masculine self image. In the moment that OP challenged him to drop the EA/gf the mirror that he preens himself in (which includes gf, OP, his children, the other hobby friends) shattered.

Everyone has a narcissistic core and everyone’s sense of self and safety can suffer a narcissistic wound. For him he felt, in the moment, that he could not endure the loss of his admiring gf, his hobby friends knowing he had made a mistake, and the loss of respect from his wife and children, and if course the return as a wounded bird to his formerly perfect life. No longer the admired family man, no longer everyone’s hero. He just couldn’t tolerate the shame.

But that isn’t to excuse it. I think once it worked all further versions and threats are essentially manipulative snd fake. Because people like this rapidly reassemble a new version of themselves—chump lady.com is full of these stories—in which their ego can remain inflated snd intact regardless of how much harm they have done.

Could you speak to her? Enlighten her on what is happening with you?