Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

Paying for the accommodation and asking is it me are huge red flags. They stick out a mile.

Don’t ever underestimate her intentions (age gaps are meaningless), and don’t ever treat people by your own standards.

She is way overstepping the mark, they both are right in front of your very face.

Mentionitis is a common symptom...so sorry.

How could I not take that threat seriously? I wanted to bring back calm and stop the shouting, plus youngest DC at home.

I think unfortunately it’s all too common. I’ve seen many similar threads . I suppose affairs don’t generally start by 2 people just falling into bed with each other, they start exactly like this.

He knows it's wrong, he's admitted it unreservedly. He understands how I feel, he is just incapable of being the bad guy to her.

But not incapable of being the bad guy to you!

You should be absolutely furious with him OP and let this night away be the springboard to the future. Either he goes and that ends your marriage or he stays and agrees boundaries going forward.

He has to stop putting his relationship with you second to his relationship with her. You have to come first.

It doesn't matter whether it is a friend, a hobby, a habit... whatever. The point is that when something you are doing starts to have a negative impact on your marriage, you should stop doing it.

He cannot have two primary relationships. He has to chose which is more important to him and you have to respect his decision and react accordingly.

He will never make this decision himself. Men hardly ever do. So instead of waiting, make this overnight trip the ultimatum. And be prepared to hold firm on that.

Ah sorry I took that out of context, makes sense. You are doing your best in an awful situation .

I can see why you felt you had to calm things down but I think you definitely have to talk with him further about the threat he made - how completely unexpected and confounding it was, how concerned you are whatever the reasons he had for saying it - there’s no reason he can give that wouldn’t be really worrying and upsetting for you and if he can’t see that then that would be really worrying too.

i think someone else mentioned speaking to family or friends IRL - is there someone you might think of speaking to?

Re. his threat to CS - I think you should keep bringing it up (unless he really is that type) and ask him if he's really going to do it - please explain about it to DC and the dog in detail first - the whys and wherefores and make them feel absolutely OK with that - also will his life insurance cover you all for several years or is it not included in the policy - oh dear I think not?? Perhaps offer a joint S too as your life is not so worthwhile now either, you too have nothing to look forward to but a broken heart. But finally ask him please not to leave a mess on the carpet whatever he does. I have found dark humour a great redeemer in many a dark situation.

It’s exactly how they start. A series of baby steps, gradually inching over the line, until the ‘friends’ find themselves lying and covering up, making excuses to be together etc.
OP - it was my 13 yr old DD who said ‘Dad is obsessed with X’. I couldn’t ignore the friendship any more.

In that case there is someone out there with your EXACT circumstances and dilemma. Also couldn’t/wouldn’t name the hobby. Is the overnight away UK or abroad?

Unfortunately when a situation like this has taken root there is no win for anyone.
He is in limerance and so will discount the value of what he is losing.
There is no reasoning with a person in limerance.
Only after he has lost the family life and disgusted good family/friends co-workers etc woo he wake up and realise and and sob/beg to come back.
Just awful for everyone.

I’m a bit confused - was the threat of suicide in response to you saying you couldn’t move forwards, ie he was reacting to the idea of your family separating, or was he saying that because you wanted him to end the contact with her? Was “everything he loves” including you and the family or just her and the hobby? It’s still outrageous but puts a different flavour on it. He sounds really weak. It’s very unattractive.

I didn’t realise she had booked them both an overnight stay away. Either she’s vain and enjoying the attention or she’s into him. I’d still feel like giving her the bucket of cold water treatment. But I’m less inclined to think she’s just naive.

you need to sit him down (kids not in the house) and I can’t tell you what to do, but I can choose what I do. If you go on that overnight, you have made a choice and that choice is not us. I don’t see how I can remain married to you if you’ve decided to choose someone else.

and be prepared to phone 999 if he talks about harming himself. Preferably on his phone so you still have yours while he talks to them.

Yeh sorry he’s hooked, and it’s an emotional affair, the deleting is the clear sign.

Too late for the OP, but was talking to someone the other day who went to run a pub for a while with his wife on some island in the UK,
Feck all to do there, so everyone was having affairs. He and his wife were the only couple to leave there after a couple of years with their marriage intact, no affairs. Because they openly talked to each other all the time about the affairs unfolding and were very aware of the risks and temptations.
So many of us (definitely me) on here naively don’t anticipate any issues (Not my Nigel) and sadly it can infect even the nicest Nigel.

The suicide threat was because I said no him and her going to the event, and participating together which includes the overnight stay.

It's UK based. Apparently I can go too.

'He's said she doesn't have many friends, has her own health issues, and he's come to the rescue'

These sorts of men absolutely love being the rescuer and the knight in shining armour to these younger women. It means that they can convince themselves that they are the good guys, even when they are having an emotional (and possibly a physical) affair and treating their partner/wives like shit.

Sorry if I have missed this OP, but did you at any point ask him how he would feel if this was you keeping a very close friendship with a man secret? If you did, I’m pretty sure he would say he would be fine with it (of course), but just wondering if he’s made any effort to consider your perspective?

Also.. on him never wanting to look bad… it’s curious that he has no qualms about being bad and his focus in on appearance. I wonder if this includes aiming to make you look bad for wanting to leave, so he can play the injured party.

And this note below from a PP points to classic narcissistic behaviour:

Side note - people who want others to always think well if them often treat their close families really, really badly. My mother is like this towards us sometimes. I have wanted to scream at her to please care a tiny little bit about what WE think of her, and less about randoms on the street.

OP, I think this sums the situation up very well.

You can go too? Oh the generosity. What an idiot he is. You go, you’re then the grown up stopping him acting out so he can still feel like the good guy but also carry on fantasising about his white knight rescuing of her.

I had meant throw a bucket of cold water on him metaphorically, but now I am beginning to think that literally is the way.

And she needs to give her head a wobble and find a guy her own age.

I see his behaviour as abusive, as coercive control, and I don’t think having therapy together whilst there is an abusive aspect to your relationship is healthy. I suggest counselling for both of you hit separately.

He's not the good guy he thinks he is. When she asked if it was her, he blatantly lied to her.

He just needs a strong dose of reality.

Is the hobby D&D or some sort of cosplay? He seems to enjoy living in a fantasy world where he's the hero.

Thanks again, all of you.

I want him to cut all contact with her. All of it. That hasn't changed since it was clear there was so much going on.

They may accidentally meet while doing the hobby, which I can't help, but I want her out of our lives - no texts, no meets, no gifts, no plans.

We will have to deal with the mental side of things. He needs help - he isn't my DH anymore.

"He said he'd like to do this event which includes an overnight overnight with her, I said I wasn't comfortable with it, I then found out she'd booked and paid for it and I just said - NO. No, I do not want you to do this with her - he then said what he said about not being alive any more and at that point I had to back down, "

She's booked and paid for an overnight event for them and when you called him on it that's when he threatened suicide?

I take back that she thinks their friendship is innocent. This is turning physical. That's what the overnight is.

You should have called your emergency services the minute he threatened suicide. But, water under the bridge. He goes for a psychiatric assessment because of voicing suicidal intent today or you are out. Go see a lawyer ASAP.

I would notify her. He is unstable, obsessed, and would you want to go on an overnight trip with someone so unstable who had recently threatened suicide? What if she refused him sexually?

This could go really, really, really bad and I think he needs immediate psych intervention. He's either in really bad shape or so deeply manipulative that he could coerce her into sex using threats of suicide.

Yes - I did, in the early days of discovery. He said he would hate it. I categorically said that I wouldn't think twice about ending any friendship that made him feel like this. I stand by it.