Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

He hid it from you because he knew it was wrong and he didn’t want to deal with your reaction. You have to decide where your boundaries are and act accordingly.

Feel for you OP, in what sounds like a good marriage except for this woman.
Personally, his reluctance to end the friendship with her and threatening to cs, it would be the end for me.
He's choosing her over you and your marriage, I'm not sure how you come back from this? How would you ever forgive this? You are not his first priority.
Choose yourself OP, get out of this marriage with this incredibly selfish man.

Dear OP. I am sorry that you are going through this crappy situation. I think you need to concentrate on yourself and the kids. He has already checked out to an extent. I can't imagine how he can seriously say to you that making him stop seeing her will result in his suicide, and then expect you to carry on. If you said to him that you would leave him, would he threaten suicide then? Or only if he can't see her. This is a very teenage girl declaration of love. It's unlikely that counselling will save anything. You must be a similar age to him. You are plenty young enough to find someone better. Either way, I don't see how you can be happy in a relationship with him, ever again. Please protect yourself and consider your next steps.

OP, there was a post on here not so long ago about a man who did wild swimming with a group of women and refused to drop contact. The circumstances weren't quite the same as this but the obsession with the group and putting the "friend's" needs above the wife's wellbeing is strikingly familiar.

Your DP seems remarkably shallow or just emotionally incompetent - as if he thinks that as long as he says nice supportive words to you, then he's a Good Man.

You say that he's admitted that all of this is wrong but then threatens to kill himself if he can't attend an overnight event that she is at, and has made absolutely no changes at all.

He's told you that he would rather kill himself than lose her. Whether he was being over-dramatic or manipulative or not, that tells you everything you need to know about his feelings.

He knows this isn't OK but isn't willing to stop it. He thinks that as long as he says nice things to you, then you'll forget about his obsession with this woman, and he'll be allowed to carry on, wherever it may end up.

Also, I'm not convinced how innocent the friend is. I can't think of a single occasion where I've raved about a friend so much to my family they wanted to meet them......boyfriends yes...... Maybe she's trying to respect the fact he's married (to some degree) by not technically doing anything "wrong" but I think there's a very real chance that she's a bit moony over him too.

What happened with the overnight event, did he go??

Thank you so much to all of you for your considered, heartfelt responses.

He's lied, gaslit, ignored, crossed boundaries and expects me to remain okay because he says "she's just my friend".

I don't have much to think about, do I? I know I have to make a decision. Whatever outcome, I know I'll be heartbroken at the end of it, even if it's just for a little while.

I can't lie - I do want to speak to her about it, I want to tell her what has happened. I did think about threatening it, but it makes little difference in the long run. However, I really don't understand how she thinks it's okay to message a married man to this extent. Perhaps she's naïve. Her family aren't though, are they - I wonder if they've questioned it?

Ultimately, these are my husbands actions. He has caused the damage. At one point he wasn't texting her as much because we were caught up in everything.. She asked if he was okay, it then came out that she was worried 'it was her'. He reassured her it wasn't, and that we were just busy. WTF??

That memory has made me furious all over again.

Fuck.

I feel her relative was trying to alert you to their relationship OP. Waving the flags for you. She obviously talks about him a LOT, and in glowing terms. This is not the sign of an innocent friendship,and her family know it.
They are both behaving disgracefully.
He's an idiot - a gaslighting idiot.

My experience, tells me to trust your instincts, you have known this man more intimately than anyone else and having been with him so long you can probably see where something is going with him, before anyone else.

He does love you from the sounds of it, but in his head is he perhaps hankering for that feeling of new love, the "what if", even if he hasn't acted on it. We can all daydream right....it doesn't mean we will stray! But there is a difference between loving someone and being "in love".

The best case scenario and one I tend to agree with is that she may not be thinking of a relationship with him, but we all like to be appreciated! That is not her fault. I also doubt that she would happily introduce you to her family, if she was wanting or having an affair with him as that would be too outrageous. It is probably a one sided crush on your husbands behalf, and she probably enjoys the adoration but has no inkling of the depth of it as she may well think its platonic and its just who he is.

However, and here is the problem for me, he hid her by omission for a year?That is worrying because why would you have cause to worry if there is nothing to hide, as he doesn't have a track record?

He deleted her texts, does he normally do that, because if not, why would he do that, it implies it felt there was something too private to be seen? If he doesn't normally delete texts, then his intent was to deceive not protect you as you had a lot on your plate...that implies that in his mind there is something to protect you from - and from what you have said there was nothing condemning in the texts other than his secrecy?

You gave him a boundary, stop seeing her, not that he needed to stop the hobby. When you set the boundary did you set a consequence, i.e. our relationship will be over, if you don't end the "friendship", because I could sort of understand (not agree) with his talking about CS then?

But if that comment was purely without a consequence being stated and in response to your request for him to (in effect) defriend her, then this emotional impulsive outburst, probably reveals what his intellectual side is not yet willing to acknowledge or verbalise to himself due to his morals....that he has hopes in her direction. He is lying to himself or manipulating you.

Do your DC know about all of this or are you keeping them out of it?

I don't think you have any option but to address it, or never know the truth. If you let it run, with him having put their friendship before your marriage, could you cope with that, I couldn't!

Good marriages are built on trust and you trust someone until they give you reason not to trust them and above everything else the fact that he threatened to CS if he had to defriend her speaks volumes. You have some hard thinking to do, you sound like a capable woman, so you know the practicalities of the options, only you know what is the right thing for you emotionally.

This is why ChatGpt is so dangerous.

It can literally self-validate anything.

That just completely underlines what I said just before this. She isn't just a platonic friend and I don't think she has normal, platonic feelings for him.

At best he's filling a boyfriend-sized hole in her life and she's reliant on him for her emotional well-being - at worst, she's got a crush on him too and is secretly hoping that they'll get together.

Her actions aren't those of a platonic, non-threatening friendship. Her family's reactions are a huge red flag.

I know it's hard when he's flooding with you loving actions OP, but it's superficial when he's not actually putting your relationship ahead of his "friendship" with Little Miss Hobby.

This resonates!!!
Sorry OP, not to try to hack your thread, but this was one of the hardest things a I had v to deal with -him being sensitive about her feelings and not wanting to let her down over a hobby event, over my feelings.
I asked him -why b do you need to go to this event (200miles away) over the BH weekend? Hi s answer was telling : ‘because [her name ] needs to train for X event.’
I said, ‘no my question is , why do YOU need to go?’
He didn’t understand that his answer had been precisely the sort of answer that people in a couple give -you expect in a couple that it is all for 1/1for all…
Which is when I realised she was his ‘hobby wife’ and my feelings didn’t count for owt.

I remember the post, thank you for the reminder.

You are spot on. Spot on in all points, except - he's a very simple person, not at all shallow or emotionally incompetent. He can't get his thoughts in order easily on bigger life things (where I can), lives in the moment - but he is very sure about being a Good Man. And he is, or, he was anyway.

He's said she doesn't have many friends, has her own health issues, and he's come to the rescue - so I'm sure there is more to it on her side, but I don't think it shifts into affair territory in her head. Who knows though.

The event is in the future, it's still booked and not cancelled. He said he'd like to do this event which includes an overnight overnight with her, I said I wasn't comfortable with it, I then found out she'd booked and paid for it and I just said - NO. No, I do not want you to do this with her - he then said what he said about not being alive any more and at that point I had to back down, I was absolutely floored, honestly.

The more you disclose, the more it sounds worse.
It sounds as if he's in love with her, I also wouldn't be too trusting of her.
You deserve better after all those years together. At the least, respect.

@FourAndFive pack your bag and go along. Their reaction will say it all. Your last post suggests this isn’t all one sided. Her age is no excuse either, she’s a grown woman and knows what she’s doing!

Sorry, but she is after your husband, and by the sounds of it she will get what she wants if he goes on this trip.
I'm so sorry, I went through something similar but my DH realised what an idiot he had been, and did everything to put it right, including blocking the friend and leaving the hobby group.

I too get the vibe that the girl probably isn't interested in him but I'm damn sure she knows perfectly well how he feels. Either way, it's monumentally disrespectful to you.

Also, surely any woman that age will be aware that a close friendship with a married man is never a good idea?

The event is in the future, it's still booked and not cancelled. He said he'd like to do this event which includes an overnight overnight with her, I said I wasn't comfortable with it, I then found out she'd booked and paid for it and I just said - NO. No, I do not want you to do this with her

Its monumentally inappropriate for anyone in relationship to be doing this with the opposite sex. Irrespective of hobbies etc

Sorry you are having to deal with this OP. Not sure if anyone has picked up on this explicitly, but I think the "taking everything away from me that I love" comment is very telling, considering that you've made it clear that you aren't asking him to stop the hobby. So what is the thing he loves? - he's talking about her, basically, isn't he, even if he isn't voicing it to himself that way. It sounds to me like an infatuation that has got out of hand.

I can believe that nothing has happened between them physically yet, and from what you've said I'm undecided as to whether she has a crush on him or whether she looks up to him more as a kind of father figure. But either way, it's how he sees it that counts really. I couldn't put up with this. It would have to be her or me, but you've already essentially given him that choice and he doesn't really want to choose either, by the sounds of it. Even if he did come around and say that he'd stop the friendship, would you believe him at this point, or would you always be on guard, watching for messages etc.? If the latter, then sadly it may be that the marriage won't recover from this in the long run. Maybe counselling is worth a shot.

I'm sorry, OP, but if your DH can't see this from your perspective, it's worrying. As others have pointed out, would he be happy for you to spend a weekend away with another man who you've befriended in the last year in the name of a "hobby"?

I'd almost be tempted to do what the poster above suggests and call their bluff, i.e. "Fine, go, but I'm going to come with you."

You have little to lose at this point given how disgustingly he has acted so it may be worthwhile getting out the big guns.

Text her with some of the suggestions upthread and assess the fallout.

And/or

Tell him to leave and you want a divorce due to his behaviour. Follow through with getting things organised and see what he does. Some men 'see the light' only when about to lose everything and then you can decide if counselling and reconciliation may be on the cards after a period of separation.

Step away, then come back and read your recent post about their ( booked ) plans to go away.

He has told you ( his wife ) that if he is not able to go away on an overnight trip with his ( girl ) friend he will kill himself.

Let that sink in. It’s abusive. He is telling/showing you who he is. Please pay attention regardless of how much you love him. Even if he steps away right now you’ll have to live with him saying that to you.

Please find the strength you need , don’t let him continue to do this to you.

He does seem infatuated with her at the same time as he wishes he wasn't because he loves you and wants to be a decent man.

I would talk to her and tell her that their relationship is threatening your marriage and that your husband threatened with CS if he wasn't "allowed" to go to that overnight gig.

If she is just a platonic friend this will make her step back, realising how intensely he feels about her and frankly be quite grossed out about it.

If she's in love with him this is the time she will probably tell you so and also tell you If something more than friendship is going on between them.

I don't know about you @FourAndFive but personally I can't stand being in the dark so I would like things to be in the open by having this calm, non accusatory but factual discussion woman to woman. Your DH is too "lost" to be of any use for the moment so hopefully she will provide the dots over the is.

I hope she will step back, not wanting to destroy a marriage and that your husband gets some therapy and truly become the decent man he once was.

You've got this spot on.

This is the worst form of emotional blackmail from a man that feels entitled to have his cake and eat it.

The choice needs to be made for him.

Continue with this inappropriate, intimate, emotional, relationship with a younger single woman (that you have kept secret, lied about and deleted messages) and we are done.

End of.

And she's 28. Not 18. She must know he's infatuated with her and she's probably enjoying it. But she is single and he is not. They are both a pair of CF's!

Thank you so much for this.

He never deletes anything.

I simply said that I wasn't sure I could move forward. Which he knew would mean a separation, at the very least. I had to back down at the time, to think very carefully about things - he was shaky, upset and it was scary, honestly. I think your take is spot on, a without consequence outburst...

All of our friends, our whole life it seems, all our future plans, our poor DC - what for?

I'm just beyond sad. Sad about what's to come, because at the moment I cannot see a way through where we go back to being 'us'. I can't live with someone who resents me. So it's him or me. I will always choose me. Eventually.

I think its probably safe to assume that PPs take (and that of pretty much any right minded person who doesn't think the only purpose of a eoman is to pander to a man) will be the exact opposite of everything you've said here. She just phrased it succinctly for you.

Despite what you have said about her probably not being into him, you have said the most important line about her intentions:

"She'd booked and paid for it"

She is absolutely making sure he is available to her and showing him that she is available to him. They are both equally invested in their relationship.

The only option you have now is to tell him again that if he goes away with her, he has walked out on you and the children. He will be walking away from your life together. There is NO ROOM in your marriage for his relationship with her. Make him choose. If he talks of suicide again, he has chosen and tell him this. You will not be shut down and sidelined whilst he destroys you.