Sex in marriage and consent...

[RenaultClio]

I guess I need a sense check. I'm mid forties, been married 20 years to my childhood sweetheart. Sex is... fine sometimes quite enjoyable, other times I get it done if you know what I mean. But sometimes I don't want to have sex or I'm asleep. Last week I woke up and he had both fingers inside me (one in each place sorry to be graphic). I led completely still and then he had sex with me. I was totally silent and not moving the entire time. He finished and without saying anything got up and went away. It happened again a few days later exactly the same except I put a pillow over my head to sort of get away? I don't expect rose petals and soft music (literally never happened!) But I had hoped for more than this in my marriage.
I would like to know whether others "get it
done"? that's normal right... sometimes it's a bit of a chore but you know it'll be OK and he'll feel better and I might even enjoy it. Also I want to tell him to stop doing stuff when I'm asleep, it feels... weird.
He's otherwise a very nice man, great with he kids, does loads of housework, sorts all the money out etc. Just a bit hard work when it comes to sex.

@SquishedMallow

I am trying to give my viewpoint in a logical, constructive way with rationale for my stance.

I understand that but now that you're aware the incidents are legally defined as rape, I was interested to hear your rationale for having a conversation regarding repeated rape.

Rapists tend to be abusive in other ways, so it's unlikely that the OP's husband will suddenly change. That's if she's willing to forgive the rapes and trust he won't do it again.

Against my better judgement (I really do think stepping away is probably best now ) I will try to address your question.

"Repeated" rape. I believe it was 2 occasions in 20 years of being touched whilst asleep. So, first time there was no indication made that the op didn't wish for it to be happening. There was no conversation the next day or in the time period after (this is her husband, her childhood sweetheart, who by her own admission has been a loving and kind husband for 20years with no abusive behaviours)

She also orgasmed through similar initiation of sex like this on a prior occasion and implies on her post that this was consensual.

So with this in mind, this may be implied consent in the husband's mind that sexual arousal beginning whilst asleep may be in fact ok with his wife.

Then on the occasion she didn't like it, but no aversion was stated after, him doing it again at a later date may answer why he feels he is doing so with consent.

I iterate again : the op states there is no history of abuse and he's been a loving husband for 20years.

In this particular circumstance this is why I think a conversation and communication is needed. Op has every right to not like being touched whilst asleep. I'd absolutely hate it. But in the context of an otherwise loving and happy marriage with the details of previous consensual similar encounters between them and that blurring the boundaries of what is and isn't ok between them,then yes : I really do think they should talk and op lay down her boundaries.

Op has been bullied (imho ) off the thread by people (not saying you) coming at her like a full speed bullet train dictating "no you're wrong. He's not a nice man. Your husband is a rapist and you've been raped".

@SquishedMallow Even if the op had been raped “ only” once, that would still be too many times!

@SquishedMallow

"Repeated" rape. I believe it was 2 occasions in 20 years of being touched whilst asleep.

The OP says:

But sometimes I don't want to have sex or I'm asleep.

She says sometimes she's non consenting to sex and describes two instances of rape initiated whilst asleep ergo, repeated rapes. I'm wondering if he's otherwise sexually coercive.

So, first time there was no indication made that the op didn't wish for it to be happening.

Again, we don't know about the other instances, just the two initiated whilst asleep. As outlined above, the victim needs to consent throughout the act and can't whilst asleep. Secondly, the perpetrator had no indication that she was consenting as she was initially asleep. Orgasm during rape is not uncommon and not a sign of consent.

There was no conversation the next day or in the time period after (this is her husband, her childhood sweetheart, who by her own admission has been a loving and kind husband for 20years with no abusive behaviours)

First, it's not uncommon for a victim of domestic abuse to either not recognise abusive behaviour or to be in denial. As you can see in this instance, the OP wasn't sure if non consensual sex was rape and doesn't see her husband as abusive. Therefore it's not unlikely that he is abusive in other ways. It's typical for someone not to know how to broach a traumatic incident.

She also orgasmed through similar initiation of sex like this on a prior occasion and implies on her post that this was consensual.

Orgasm isn't an indicator of consent, it's a physiological response. The OP was asleep and therefore was unable to give consent.

So with this in mind, this may be implied consent in the husband's mind that sexual arousal beginning whilst asleep may be in fact ok with his wife.

Since the OP was asleep, she couldn't consent and consent needs to be gained during each sexual act. You can't presume consent. It's easy to know when someone is consenting as they are an equal participant, not lying rigid with a pillow over their face.

Then on the occasion she didn't like it, but no aversion was stated after, him doing it again at a later date may answer why he feels he is doing so with consent.

Consent can't be presumed and she was unconscious, therefore couldn't give consent. She's also clearly stated that she wasn't consenting.

I iterate again : the op states there is no history of abuse and he's been a loving husband for 20years.

Yet he's raping her.

We aren't savvy to the details of the OPs relationship and know he's abusive because he's raping her. For example, when she lay rigid with a pillow over her head (to dissociate), he didn't ask if she was okay, he just carried on.

It's important for the OP to understand that this is rape because she needs to protect herself from it happening again.

Your husband is a rapist and definitely not a nice man. What you have described is horrific. I cannot imagine a world in which my husband would ever do this.

Can you not see the grey area ?

In court :

DW: "my husband raped me"

Did you tell him to stop or tell him afterwards you didn't like it ?

DW: no

Has this ever happened before whilst you're asleep with consent?

DW: "yes" (the orgasm occasion the op implies , or it's at least how I read it, that it was indeed a consensual encounter)

Case wrapped up pretty quickly.
-20 yr loving marriage with no abuse

• previous consensual sex whilst starting off with arousal whilst asleep culminating in orgasm.
• reason for the husband to believe this is a practice she consents to (a reasonable assumption)
• consent can be withdrawn at any time of course. When it was previously ok, you would expect in this circumstance, withdrawal of said consent would be voiced. It wasn't.
• therefore is it reasonable that the DH acted believing he had implied consent ? I'd say - yes.

It wouldn't stand a chance in court. Way too many grey areas. So many in fact : that "did he rape her beyond all reasonable doubt ?" Well: stark no.

Even the less grey rapes (as in my example previously) are enormously difficult to prove.

Encouraging the op (when she doesn't even insist herself she was raped) to go through a horrendously ordeal dragging herself and her husband through police /divorce lawyers/courts all to brand him a rapist and give a high five to a bunch of internet femininsts who'll go back to cooking tea and seeing what's on TV tonight - is quite frankly cruel.

@SquishedMallow

”A bunch of internet feminists” was a bit of a mask slip there tbh. I don’t think someone discussing in good faith would use that phrase.

I hope you’re never in a position in real life where a loved one, or god forbid a young person, asks you for advice or support about anything related to sexual coercion or consent.

If that's your best response, yet another personal attack, picking apart pieces of my post that aren't even relevant. And that is why I will bow out.

@SquishedMallow

You're not taking in what I'm saying. You can't give consent whilst unconscious. Non consensual sex is rape.

A court examines whether the three components of rape have been met.

A. Intentional penetration B. Non consensual C. No reasonable belief the victim consents.

All three criteria have been met in these two instances as the OP was unconscious when sexual activity was initiated and the perpetrator knew she was asleep. You cannot presume consent and the perpetrator couldn't have a reasonable belief because the victim was asleep.

I'm not encouraging the OP to go to the police as that's her decision, I'm encouraging her to protect herself from further assaults. What's cruel is encouraging the OP to stay in a relationship with a rapist.

It's always so disappointing to see women saying 'oh but if only you'd made it clear at any point that you didn't want to be fingered and raped in your sleep!'

Rape apologists depress the hell out of me.

It’s not a “personal attack” calling people “a bunch of internet feminists” though? That’s a sensible, measured and reasoned description is it? Interesting.

A good man, a safe partner, does not find it arousing to penetrate an unconscious woman in her vagina or anus with a finger or penis. And he definitely doesn’t continue being aroused, and continue to penetrate her, when she puts a pillow over her own face when she regains consciousness.

That’s the kind of man you’re encouraging OP to believe might still be ‘good’.

I agree it’s absolutely best you bow out. I hope you’re never ever in a safeguarding position.

Agree. Apparently it’s on us women to explain to men why sexual assault and rape are bad.

I mean how could the poor little lambs have a clue that a sleeping women doesn’t consent to having fingers shoved up her arse?

Same here. Even more depressing than male rape apologists in many ways, isn’t it?

You need to watch the cup of tea/rape video on YouTube.

You wouldn't force someone who was sleeping to drink a cup of tea.
You wouldn't keep pouring tea into someone's mouth if they woke up and didn't move, meaning the tea poured everywhere. Even if previously they had drunk the tea.
You wouldn't force someone who was unconscious to drink a cup of tea.

Consent for sex (and tea) should be enthusiastic. Never EVER assumed. For EACH and EVERY act.

OPs husband did not get her consent. This IS rape and sexual assault. Hop op deals with this is what matters TO HER going forwards, not how people like you try to brush this shit under the carpet.

I've taught this to teenage boys and girls in the last 15 years, and seen the video played in school assemblies. Consent for sex is essential. No fucking grey area. Kids these days know this, shocking that actual adults don't, and seem to have rape apologist excuses.

Hope you're ok op.