Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 16

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5299389-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-15?page=1

People with ADHD still can change @Jaduria , but like anyone they have to want to. DH has stopped doing some things I've found upsetting or frustrating which have improved quality of life a lot (e.g. using Google calendar, accepting that I will have told him if an event is happeneing even if he doesn't remember). I guess its hard to gauge that relatively early in a relationship though.

In other news, a week and a half after losing his job, DH is feeling a bit down today and I think it's all hit him. I am relieved to find he's not giving up on his product, he's doing some more programming work on it from what he learned on the last job and he knows he has to get on to marketing it.

I'm going to encourage him to a) speak to friends in the field who have offered help and b) look into the email he received just after he started the job from some sort of marketing person offering services to launch his product. It's probably just cold-calling BS, but it's worth finding out what the proposal is and how much it costs, because I'm not sure he'll ever be able to market it himself and just maybe it's worth some investment to kickstart it. We can potentially stand a few grand for that, but I'm not remortgaging the house for it (nor would he want me to)!

Also, he has an online ADHD appointment on Thursday... I worry he ma be pinning too much hope on getting diagnosed and getting meds, and meds sorting out his interpersonal and work issues, but we'll see.

@Ohdostopwafflinggeremy what is making guilt such a huge part of you hesitating?

If you’d feel relieved if he was pulling the plug, I feel this means are finished on your side. You’ve given it all and there’s no hope there.

But the guilt.
Is it for the dcs? Even though it seems they say theyd be happier if you were separated
Is it about your dh, knowing he is more vulnerable?

Some times, we feel guilty because we feel responsible for stuff that isn’t ours to carry. Some times, it’s not really guilt but shame that is there. I feel it’s worth knowing where this guilt is coming from iyswim

@Jaduria I am in the same position. 6 months into a relationship with a lovely man who has autistic traits. I've never experienced this before so looking here and it's frightening tbh.

His traits are like your man. He really cannot say anything complimentary to me at all. Or open up emotionally. Ive never met anyone like this before. Sometimes I feel like he's a dinosaur or something reptilian because his eyes seem completely dead.

Yet he's so lovely. He's polite, respectful and responsive. He makes plans, keeps to them. Always shows up for me. Looks after me when I go round there. He's great in bed, I love lying in his arms on the sofa watching tv. Our interests are the same. We have a nice time together.

When I've tried to talk to him about the lack of emotional connection he's been really apologetic. Said sometimes he thinks he might be dead inside but then he cries at sad films and loves romantic music. So he thinks perhaps he isn't.

It's really odd. And I dont know what to do honestly. I really enjoy his company.

I think it depends how much emotional connection you think you need. And also what that would look like, and what you can do without.

Maybe think about your list of what constitutes emotional connection. Is it asking about your day? Is it remembering things that are important to you? Is it saying you look beautiful/sexy/pretty? If compliments about your physical appearance are not of importance to you, is it telling you how smart you are? How good at your job? What a great mum /kind daughter you are (if you are a mum, daughter, etc). Are you self assured enough not to need reassurance? Do you need someone to empathise or would it be enough if they listened and took on board what you said? So rather than intuit x might cause you to feel y, would it be OK if you said when x happens I feel y, please can you be mindful of that (and they actually listened and took it on board for next time)?

In short what is on your list of essentials and what is desirable but you could manage without or mitigate that in some way?

Then I would examine whether there is anything that gives you slight cause for concern. Does he speak badly about his ex? Does he apportion blame to other people when things haven’t gone well? Does he sulk or go silent when he’s pissed off? Is he overly critical of others? Can he shrug off minor misunderstandings? Does he get bogged down on being seen to be right? Does he have a temper (if not with you then with anyone else?). Is there a pattern of falling out with people who he no longer speaks to (friends, family, colleagues, etc)? Can he accept when he’s in the wrong? Can he apologise? Is he easily offended?

I’m not saying one of those things would be a relationship ender on its own, but if there are a few of these little signs then pay attention as these will likely be huge in years to come. There can be a gradual unmasking brought on by external stressors and small things which we ignored in the first few years can turn into daily emotional abuse.

I don’t know your DP and I’m certainly not saying all autistic men should be avoided. My DP is autistic and he is working really hard to be a better version of himself. And I would say he is succeeding. But would I have gone down this road if I foresaw who he really was..? No, probably not. Not because of autism, but because all those little flags I described above and which I shrugged off, were waving silently at me. And I ignored them. DP was kind, attentive, great in bed, funny, outgoing, selfless in his generosity. So many traits you would dream of in a partner!

Go into this with a clear understanding, your eyes wide open, and a list of what you need. Sounds clinical, but I think if we had been more clinical and less swept along then many of us might not have set ourselves on the very difficult pathway that we have walked.

Oooh amazing advice thank you.

I never hear him talking badly about anyone. He's very gentle and kind to animals. He's very self critical and does get flustered when things go wrong. But not disastrously so.

I will save your post and refer to it again. It's really comprehensive and helpful.

I think I dont need validation or a lot of emotional connection really. It just surprised me not to get it. Tbh I'm really bad at saying such stuff myself, and have tended to go off men who have overwhelmed me with praise etc so maybe he will be an interesting change.

Looking for any advice and I find the posters on here really insightful. I strongly suspect my DP has ADHD and ASD (lots of traits and runs in his family.) He’s overall a great partner-kind, funny, generous. He’s struggled with teeth-brushing and showering but after I raised it has worked hard to address this. So he can change where he puts his mind to it. However, one thing I’m really struggling with is he doesn’t seem able to recognise when he’s getting overwhelmed and to then regulate. So it could fe when he has too many other things to do and doesn’t get as long on his special interest. Or when our puppy is being badly behaved. Basically normal things that are annoying but he then goes into a sulk and either won’t speak or grumps about everything. This can go on for hours. I’ve tried to explain that this brings me down. I try to guess when things are getting too much and encourage him to take time-out and do something fun. I’ve suggested he can just pretend and act like normal. Nothing seems to work (unless he can go off for a few hours and do his own thing which isn’t always possible.) I know I can be a more sensitive soul but I find this really hard and it can be a real drag especially if we’ve gone out for the day or are on holiday. Any ideas how I can approach this?

@SpecialMangeTout3 I think the feelings of guilt are for both dh & the kids.
Guilt that he would be on his own, guilt that I know he doesn't understand what he has done/not done. I know im not responsible for him, but i still dont want to hurt him by leaving.
Guilt for forcing the kids to move, change their lives.
Guilt & Shame that im not in a position financially to take care of my own children and even if I left I'd still be financially dependant on dh.
I would be relieved If dh made the call because the guilt and shame wouldn't be of my choosing iyswim.
Maybe I have been putting dh and the kids first for so long that I dont know how not to.
I honestly dont know what putting my needs first even looks like.

@Ohdostopwafflinggeremy I really get all that you have said. I don't want to invalidate your feelings but I see someone who has tried so hard, and who has been managing this situation for so long. At the end of the day there is shame and guilt, but you have really thrown everything at this marriage and (taking your thread posts at face value) it just hadn’t worked out and that no one’s fault. It’s okay to not be able to partition the distress this causes anymore and to need to move on. Life is so short and you deserve peace. (I’m so sorry if I’ve been tactless there or overstepped).

@Jaduria @SnazzyFoxTrot please Google rejection sensitivity dysphoria and Megan Neff and read her excellent fact sheet. I believe RSD is extremely hard to live with and that your partners are probably masking its true extent. What RSD does is break communication about things that really matter to you in a relationship. You’ll find yourself biting your tongue because you can’t raise something without getting a shutdown or anger in return. Over time, this can really kill a relationship. This is way beyond tips. It requires the partner to have self curiosity and be willing to go to therapy etc. (even then it’s no picnic).

@LittleJustice I think you need to look at Dr Neff’s fact sheet on alexithymia which is a difficulty in naming and communication emotions. Basically someone feels emotions but cannot differentiate these. In my experience this can trigger a lot of maladaptive coping strategies. This will also kill communication around emotions in a relationship as the partner will deeply struggle with communicating about their (and by extension your) emotions. It may be easier to simply avoid communicating around emotions. Avoidance can be a slow death to a marriage. This again is way beyond tips, it’s not minor it’s absolutely huge.

@NoviceVillager Nothing tactless in anything you said. I completely agree with everything you point out.
I have sugarcoated decades of my life, to make it more palatable to myself. Some straight talking is exactly what I need now.💐

One of the things I'm struggling with when considering what to do about the nuerodivergent person in my life (stepson not partner) is how to weigh up the various aspects of his character.

You could say that he is a pretty 'good' person. Though he can appear self-centre, he is capable of acts of kindness and a lot of the time seems like a gentle person. He pursues quite an alternative lifestyle - allotment keeping, doing up vans and sheds. He is good at making things. He's not materialistic and isn't normally agressive in the sense he doesn't swear or go round in crowds shouting after football matches.

But something quite small that I said at a time when he was going through upheavals, triggered a massive meltdown, where he was really verbally abusive. It was via WhatsApp, not face to face. Again it wasn't a sweary message, but it was quite targeted - a demolition of my perceived personality and saying that I'd not had any kind of positive role on his life. Three incidents from 30 years ago were mentioned as 'proof' of these flaws, but one of these - the most serious - is not something I or my husband remember happening.

It was very much at variance with my own picture of myself as someone who had been pretty kind and patient and very much a consistent part of his life. Who'd also told him off and got cross with him occasionally, when he'd been challenging, but also just dished up the fish fingers, drove him to judo class etc.

I was wondering how other people try to make sense of the the fact that neurodivergence can make 'good' people behave in such 'bad' ways. Because the message was really horrible - it shook me to the core - and he hasn't apologised several months on.

@PollyHutchen in some ways the way your dss acted is very typical for someone who is autistic. It doesn’t mean that he is a bad person or that Theres something weird about a good person doing bad things. I think he is ‘just’ being autistic, aka very blunt in his delivery, even more so if he was having a meltdown.
In the middle if a meltdown, it’s not unusual that autistic people say things that are either too blunt (and therefore hard to hear) or excessive (like many NT btw). The difference is that they can’t stop it. They’re not in control.
And Theres something about autism and memory too (I’m pretty sure we’ve talked about it before) where autistic people seem to, some times, have memories are that totally different from anyone else.

I have to say, if he was having a meltdown, then I would forget and draw a line under it.
Apologies afterwards would have been nice if he has realised how hurtful what he said was, but you’re in this hard place where you’re a parent/step parent to an adult child so you can’t really scold them (even though it’s very tempting. I know that from my own adult dcs!).

I have a problem with the idea of destructive hurtful behaviour as 'just being blunt' and/or 'just being autistic'. 'Moving on' would appear to mean walking on eggshells till the next meltdown. I can't see much meaningful difference between this and staying with somebody who is 'just a physical abuser' and 'moving on' after each episode of violence.

Additionally the 'false memory' - something that neither my partner and I believe can conceivably have happened - and which could not have been concealed at the time - has been communicated to his new partner. Who believes him and thinks I am not safe to be around their new baby.

My partner who used to work in a role that involved child safeguarding is also horrified. Because my stepson 'remembers' him being there at the time when the bad thing happened, and doing nothing. The implication of everything my stepson said is that I was an unsuitable/unsafe person to be around children, and that I damaged him, and my partner is seriously at fault for having involved me in his children's lives.

Meanwhile my post meltdown stepson who just believes he was being honest wants everything 'back to normal' ie regular visits from/to my partner and me.

Presumably it is the arrival of the baby that has caused all this to erupt. Previously myrelationship with my stepson had been pretty civilised and uneventful for around fifteen years....

I do understand that there is a processing/cognitive difficulty bit there is a limit to what I - and my husband - can deal with.

Moving on, for me, means 'moving away' at least for the time being.

You have to protect yourself @PollyHutchen you should not be expected to but up with that level of batshit. If asks why you state that his attitude and belief that you would harm him means you can no longer be around. There are consequences I don’t care how ND you are.

@PollyHutchen whether you feel that moving on is the right answer is up to you.
I think we’re all in very different positions and therefore our answers will be different too.

For ME (and that’s just me), something that seems to be unusual at the back of years and years of a very good relationship wouldn’t lead me to cutting someone off. Esp if I knew there was no malice into it. That it was linked with a meltdown etc….
Rather I’d want to have a chat and try to work something out together.

If it was something that happened repeatidly, or the person had no wish at all to engage despite taking into account their disability (eg putting it in writing etc….), then I’d review the situation.

Fwiw, what killed things between me and dh isn’t autism. It’s the avoidance and PA that he developed to protect himself (because bullying etc etc from autism) that made it impossible to live with him.

I think for me there are also some issues that are to do with age and different generational attitudes to parenting/step-parenting. I was brought up with the idea that parents were supposed to be respected. As a teenager I'd get angry and I thought my parents were wrong and stupid in some ways - which they were. But I also had the idea that you were meant to be polite to them, that you owed them something - respect perhaps in return for being housed and clothed and fed. It sounds very old-fashioned but it continues to influence me.

I can't get past the contempt my stepson showed to me. I think that some high-functioning people who are autistic - not all - can be very arrogant. They feel they are extremely clever and superior and they get frustrated with a world that doesn't understand them, and that people who don't think and act as they do are inferior.

I honestly felt that something in me died, in relation to him, because of the violent rage that something quite small I had said to him had unleashed.. (I felt something similar when I was 17 and I was subjected to a serious physical assault by a person who ought to have protected me.)

I don't mean that I won't be civil to him. It may also be that he can move on in some way and realise that what he wants - for everything to be normal and for me to be involved with his partner and child - is impossible given that he's made unfounded allegations of abusive behaviour on my part. Which might mean there's a potential way forward.

@PollyHutchen this is a real stretch, but have you ever read up about pathological demand avoidance (also known as pervasive drive for autonomy) and ‘equalising behaviour’. I think you would have perhaps seen signs earlier, but in PDA a power imbalance is thought to create a nervous system threat response whereby the PDAer engages in behaviour that would reassert their power. Just a thought.

Though it seems a wider feature that hierarchies don’t always make sense to ASD people, and can be seen as arbitrary. So maybe quite a different worldview to you potentially? It sounds so upsetting what you’re going through 💐

@PollyHutchen I too was brought up with the idea of a modicum of respect, though I think I was pretty awful at times tbh. But underlying it, that idea was there.

It sounds like your stepson accused you of something pretty awful, and it's not surprising you can't just let it go in that case.

It may be that this just has to play out; that you need to acknowledge your own very hurt feelings and that it affects your future contact with them. Some things, once said, can't be unsaid and yes they change the future dynamics to a lesser or greater degree.

My officially diagnosed elder son and undiagnosed-exH both have serious problems with distorted memories; both of them have been in incidents where they relate events one way and several bystanders relate the story in a different way. It's extremely difficult to know how to handle references to the events concerned, when the vast majority of the evidence seems to be that it happened one way but they get upset because they remember the incident in a different way, and then their reality and memories are being denied.

DH has got an ADHD diagnosis!

After we get back from holiday they'll sort out meds and some counselling sessions. I'm really pleased, as I've mentioned before though, I don't know if he's setting too much hopes on meds sorting out his job security or the emotional issues, but we'll see.

That’s fantastic news @Echobelly!
I think all people I’ve come across who went on medication of ADHD have reported it really helped them.
So I’m 🤞🤞 your dh will find similar benefits!

Is the counselling irganised by the pepole who did the diagnosis or do you have to sort that yourselves?

I think they area offering it, miraculously on NHS , but I think we're lucky to have very good services locally, as attested to the counselling we have got re: parenting and DH.

Unlike DS, he has hyperactive/impulsive as well as inattentive, which doesn't surprise me.

He's said he's a little worried he'll be boring on meds but I've reminded him that our son really doesn't seem any less himself on his!

The meds can certainly help with emotional regulation so fingers crossed!

That’s amazing @Echobelly !!

That is great @Echobelly !

Excellent news @Echobelly

Just looking for a bit of guidance here, as mentioned before, my ex (Au ADHD) and I split up. Was deeply in love but he wanted to see me more, and no matter what I did to make it work, it was never enough. I felt his frustration that I wasnt like him (no ties or responsibilities). He then didn't respond to any messages after a difficult call, a Complete shut down. This was months ago but he has now reappeared almost blaming me for everything that went wrong. Complete tunnel vision. I want to reply but I want to really get my point across at how unreasonable he was. How he threw us away. I guess i want him to realise that his actions ruined everything. Is this wishful thinking?

I think it is possible to get your point across but whether he will accept the truth of what you’re saying is another thing. I wonder what it is he blames you for. Having children? Not seeing more of him? Not being clear about what you wanted? Perhaps he also needs to feel heard and validated (important to all people but especially so with autistic people). If it were me I would listen to his “complaints” and just say ok, yes, I understand, and resist the temptation to say “but you knew I had kids” or “but I don’t see what else I could have done” or any other statement which sounds defensive. Just listen, accept this is his truth, you don’t need to answer, defend, or say anything really.

Then, once he is heard and validated, you could try moving on to your truth. Which is that it was cruel to ignore your messages and shut you down like that. That cold shouldering people is a form of punishment and, even if that wasn’t his intention, that is how you experienced his behaviour: As punishment. And if he tries to say “but I was only
protecting myself” or “but I didn’t think we had anything more to say” or whatever, then you stop him and say no! When you wanted to talk to me about what went wrong for you, I listened. I didn’t respond with reasons or excuses for my behaviour or try to tell you you were wrong for feeling the way you did. I listened to you. Now you need to listen to me. This cruel punishment is, FOR ME, what cemented the end of our relationship and I cannot come from that. It was hurtful beyond belief. I want you to know how awful that made me feel.

This is how I would handle it. But I don’t know your ex and I don’t know what capacity he has to listen. If this were me and DP, this is how I would go about it. Xx