Is my husband an Incel?

[DiannaSpanna]

Hubby and I finally got round to watching Adolescence on Netflix this week.

When we finally finished we chatted for ages about it and at one point he asked what incel meant. So I explained it was involuntary celibacy and that it was guys who couldn't find a woman to sleep with. He joked "so married men?".

This got me prickly and I responded that it's different, but he thought about it for a bit and then made the point that if a husband wants sex and his wife doesn't, he's therefore involuntary celibate. I couldn't argue, as I got what he meant and he wasn't have a dig at me or women in general, just stating what it conjured up for him. But it got my back up all the same and I've not been able to stop thinking about it.

I know why. At the beginning of our relationship and marriage we had a very healthy sex life. He's great in bed, generous and still gorgeous. But after 3 kids, my body changing and generally mellowing, I don't really feel sexual desires anymore. And I'm happy with that. It feels right for me.

So I can't even remember the last time we had sex. It's definitely been over a year.

He's clearly still keen, flirts and tries it on from time to time. But I just don't feel like it. He never guilts or pressures me and is super respectful, but I can see it hurts him to be rejected. And he definitely seems less joyous than he used to and just generally deflated.

So I'm worried that I've made my husband an incel, if not in terms of red pill forums and Andrew Tate etc (he's not an idiot), but the feelings of sadness and resentment that come from being rejected.

When it comes to sex, I have all the control. He has none and has to wait for if and when I feel like it. Which is almost never anymore. When I put myself in his shoes, and if the situation were reversed, I would be angry and feel powerless.

So I find myself in a place where I really don't know what to do. I love him to bits and adore our life together, but I've changed and now he's got to live without something as fundamental as sex - through no fault of his own.

I don't know why I'm writing this here, but would love to know if anyone else is going through the same and if you have any advice.

You are potentially treading a dangerous path here, OP. You obviously have the right to not have sex anymore but your husband also has the right to want to have it.
The fact that he made the "joke" comment about husbands being "incels" should set alarm bells ringing that, while he seems respectful of your position, he is not happy about it.

I think in your position I would want to have a real heart to heart with him before more time elapses.
And maybe some relationship counselling would work too.

You sound as though you have a good relationship but I do think that, given his comments, it's unlikely he is going to be able to stay in a sexless relationship indefinitely.

And if he's as lovely and gorgeous as you describe he probably won't find it difficult to move on to pastures new.

It isn’t “crap” for a lot of us. I am peri and my libido just….died. Coupled with the weird brain fog, chronic insomnia, periods all over the place, lumpy painful breasts, random bouts of tears and huge totally unreasonable periods of rage, I decided to try HRT. It literally resolved everything and has changed my life.

Sorry but making a snippy comment about never getting sex is whining. He clearly feels he’s entitled to it

Tbh I'd start to feel a bit snippy (and the rest) if DH unilaterally killed off the sexual side of our relationship.

It takes up to 3 years for hormones to balance themselves after having a child - this means different things for different women. I lost a lot of my passion for things and instead focused on my child, then eventually I started to feel myself again. In the initial few months I didn’t want to be touched sexually, it felt weird and unnatural especially after breastfeeding a child to sleep - I was also exhausted which really dulls the libido.

Depending on age perimenopause can also be a factor. I would get your hormones, vitamin levels, cortisol etc… checked to get an idea of what is going on with your body! There’s lots of private blood tests online so you could even do a women’s hormone/health full bloods profile and see if anything is out of whack before going to a gp.

Also maybe try to ease yourself back to it by trying to reconnect with that part of yourself by practising self love - someone else on the thread suggested racy novels. Do you get much time to relax without the kids? Getting some time for yourself might help you reclaim yourself.

NRFT

He's not an incel unless he has the same thought processes and ideas. As someone said, being an incel isnt about not having sex.

Re a celibate relationship, that's fine if you are both happy with it. He sounds like he is resigned to it but is he happy with it? It is something he is willing to stop? You need an honest talk.

TBH, I'd be happy to be celibate. However, sex is really important to my husband. He feels rejected and unloved without it. He would never, ever, ever force me or make me feel bad about it but his feelings are as valid as mine.

So I do make an effort to have sex. Probably not enough for my husband but, like everything, it's a compromise. I'm not saying that YOU have to have "matainance sex" but it is a choice I make.

And why do you think that when it comes to sex you have all the control based on the premise that without your consent he can’t have sex with you? Without his consent you can’t have sex with him either

Because she doesn’t want sex. She doesn’t need his consent for sex as she doesn’t want sex.

The feeling of powerlessness ( and loss and loneliness) comes across really strongly in all the threads from people ( men and women) who are with partners who no longer have sex with them.

He's choosing to stay married to you, and presumably faithful, so the celibacy is not involuntary. It would only be involuntary if he was completely unable to find anyone who'd have sex with him.

@DiannaSpanna @Orangesinthebag has nailed it. This with bells on:

“You are potentially treading a dangerous path here, OP. You obviously have the right to not have sex anymore but your husband also has the right to want to have it.
The fact that he made the "joke" comment about husbands being "incels" should set alarm bells ringing that, while he seems respectful of your position, he is not happy about it.
I think in your position I would want to have a real heart to heart with him before more time elapses.
And maybe some relationship counselling would work too.
You sound as though you have a good relationship but I do think that, given his comments, it's unlikely he is going to be able to stay in a sexless relationship indefinitely.
And if he's as lovely and gorgeous as you describe he probably won't find it difficult to move on to pastures new.”

For many of us - for me, anyway - sexual intimacy is a core part of our relationship with our spouse. Without it, an important part of what distinguishes it from other friendships and relationships - an important part of our connection - is gone.

Some mismatch in libido is, I think, very common. My DH and I found a rhythm and regularity that worked for us both. We compromised. I never had sex that I actively didn’t want to have but I have sometimes had sex because I wanted to express closeness and commitment rather than because I was feeling particularly horny. I always found I enjoyed it once I started as my libido is quite reactive.

There was a thread on here quite a while ago from a woman who - like you - had just stopped wanting sex with her DH and had assumed he would just live with it. They had not had sex for many years. He sought her permission to open up the relationship which she gave, despite not being altogether comfortable with it. He promptly fell in love with the other woman because she was giving him the intimacy and connection that the poster had denied him. The poster was so surprised and upset but had apparently given very little prior thought to her husband’s feelings about the situation. As Oranges said, that poster was entitled not to want sex but her husband was entitled to want it and decide he didn’t want a marriage that did not involve sex.

Sometimes physical health means that PIV sex is impossible. That’s a different scenario. But even then, other sexual acts may be possible. But that doesn’t appear to be what’s going on here. You seem to have withdrawn all forms of sexual intimacy and just expected your DH to be okay with it.

Wow. Some seriously unpleasant people posting here today.
OP, I understand your problem and sympathise, although have no real solution.

You mean the well evidenced reduction in hormones that reduces sex drive? The actual thing that exists?

I agree with everything that @Orangesinthebag has written. Life has peaks and troughs and women’s bodies do go through something akin to shock when they give birth and it can take a time recover but a year is a very long time. Your DH doesn’t seem like the awful ones on here that are just dreadful so it is no surprise their wives don’t want sex with them. We had a couple of dry spells, I had a gynae op so actually wasn’t allowed to for a while and I also suffered with depression when our DD died. You need to explore what’s going on with yourself emotionally and physically possibly with professional help. No one has the right to sex even if married but also people have the right to leave a sexless marriage for that reason.

Hi OP, I think you’re getting a bit of slack about the incel comment. I think you know your husband isn’t an incel but he made that comment to flag to you he isn’t content with the no sex. As PPs have said, you don’t have to and shouldn’t have sex with him if you don’t want to, but it is worth looking at why you don’t want to and if that might ever shift. It sounds like you really love and value your husband and it’s something that’s important to him so it’s worth exploring for that reason. I think there’s some data around women and desire in long term relationships that suggests a lot of women go off sex after having children. But libido does come back. It’s worth looking at any potential physical symptoms (could peri menopause be a possibility) as well as other circumstances that mean it’s low on the agenda for you (how often do you do something for you that you love that isn’t about work/family/parenting obligations? do you feel comfortable and confident in your own skin?). Good luck OP

I think many on MN don't realise there are two 'variants' of the word expectation.

If you expect (believe it MUST happen) sex, yes, you deserve the full wrath of MN. No-one should be forced to do it, and no-one should demand that of a partner.
BUT
There is the other 'expactation', and that's what I think most people actually mean. A normal part of marriage IS sex for the vast majority of couples. It is a belief that with marriage comes sex. It's not a demand, but it's like saying an ice cream sundae has a cherry on top. It's normal, and you'd probably be very disappointed if it wasn't there.

Many people do believe that with marriage comes sex, and for one to unanimously take it off the table is unfair. I'm in that position and it's miserable. It is essentially a daily feeling of rejection, because even if you're not asking/hinting for it, you know it's a 'no', you know you're going to be rejected. It's soul-destroying.

An incel as I understand it is not someone in a marriage or a long term relationship. It's a man (usually young) who has never been in one, or at least not for a long time, perhaps years. Also a trait of hating women for not being in a relationship, perhaps feeling he is entitled to be in one.

Others may understand it differently.

Just because you say you wouldn’t feel angry and powerless, doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable for others to think that they would. Being sexually attracted to someone is one of the main drivers for people entering into relationships in the first place.

You don’t think that sounds like it was written by the bloke in the situation, pretending to be the woman? Oh sweet summer child…

He’s obviously not an incel.
He doesn’t hate women or blame women for his issues.
He would not have put up with you not having sex with him by now.

I don’t think you know what an incel is.
If you did you wouldn’t be labelling the man you love with one of the worst names you can call him.

If you want to stay in this relationship with him then something needs to change.
It is not fair to expect someone to stay in a sexless marriage.

couldn’t you bring yourself to do it to please him?

If he's a decent man, the idea of her "making herself" have sex for him will make his boner wilt.

OP's husband isn't 'forced' to live without sex for the rest of his life, though. As circumstances change, people reevaluate their choices and adjust to make new ones. OP's husband and OP may well decide that sex is the place in which their paths diverge and they decide to go their separate ways. This is common and no spouse ever has to spend the rest of their days sexually unfulfilled. Unless they decide there is a trade-off to be had by remaining a couple despite unforeseen celibacy, such as retaining a family home or providing a two-parent family unit for children, for instance.

Anyone who thinks a man is happy to never have sex again when he is still relatively young is under a misapprehension.
OP please seek medical advice or counselling. Good luck.

It's striking to me how oblivious many men have remained to the fact that being an equal partner in housework and child-rearing is incredibly hot, and that having to nag to get him to do stuff is a total passion-killer.

is that toy worth its weight in gold.

So basically, a man needs to be good at driving a hoover, unasked, and driving a Hitachi Magic Wand?

How do we communicate this to the actual incels?

Make an appointment o see Relate
https://www.relate.org.uk/

I don't think people give tiredness enough consideration too (not sleep tired so much as just an absolute fatigue that envelops everything). That's the impression I get with my wife. It almost devours everything - that's where I've failed sadly in the past. Trying to do better now (and the worst of it is that I'm going to be doing all of it if the worst case happens with my wife's illness). Life just ain't easy..... But sex definitely helps with your outlook on life.

The entire point of foreplay is to get you in the mood.

The elephant in the room with that is that women run the risk of starting foreplay and not getting in the mood, at which point they have a horny husband on their hands. Some men think that women shouldn't start what they aren't willing to finish and won't take "no" for an answer under that circumstance. I've been in relationships where it's been in the back of my mind that I don't and can't know for sure that my BF would respect a late-stage "no". Far safer, psychologically, not to start foreplay at all than to find out the hard way that your husband will rape you if you change your mind.

You need to communicate. A discussion about the frequency of sex but also about time for each other in your relationship, how you express affection. You and your body are in child rearing mode but that doesn’t have to be all you are if you want to find your way back to being a couple. If you don’t then you also need to communicate.