Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 15

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5245372-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-14?page=39&reply=143014416

Thank you, it just feels like the final straw now and it's pushing me in the right direction!

No it's not but maybe I just got used to it and also told he wasn't laughing at me but with me, although that wasn't quite right.

Everything you say is exactly spot on! It just doesn’t matter. No one is a fault. Stuff happens. People mishear. People forget. People think they’ve been clear and they haven’t. We don’t have to find fault. I am not trying to find fault with him. I’m just saying “remember to say x instead of y so we don’t get the wrong dish delivered again”, but he hears that as “you made a right mess of it last time, didn’t you? When you order this time, make sure you don’t mess it up. Again!!!” It’s horrible how he thinks I must think. It’s so sad and unnecessary!

I am guilty of this! I hold my hand up. I am a very unserious person. When we met DP took himself far too seriously. His ex didn’t really take the mickey out of people. Their relationship was quite serious in many respects. Quite grown up. I’m not like that at all. I laugh all the time. I try not to take life seriously. I do get riled about things. But I also laugh as much as possible, including at myself. I take the P out of DP a lot (he provides a lot of material!) and 95% of the time he is laughing along too at his funny old ways. His mispronounced words. His obsessive likes. He laughs at me too. I have many funny ways as well and fully deserve to not take myself too seriously. But I can overstep the mark. Sometimes he’s had enough and will tell me off for laughing at him. Which is fair enough. I need to say I’m sorry, I didn’t realise you weren’t laughing along and I’m sorry to have upset you. It wasn’t my intention.

I should definitely be better that. I never want to upset anyone.

Oh OK, what you describe isn’t banter by the sounds of it. It’s one thing to laugh at the odd mispronounced word, or in DP’s case his propensity to be wonderfully pompous, but laughing at a stutter or the way someone eats or their physical appearance is bullying! That’s not funny!!! Especially if someone is saying they are finding it hurtful. This is when you immediately backtrack and apologise for upsetting them. You don’t carry on doing it and tell them to get over it!

He obviously doesn’t understand the social norms that the rest of us are tuned into. You getting upset is highlighting that he doesn’t get it. So he’d rather blame you than accept that perhaps he got it wrong.

I am sending you all the strength through the universe to find your exit. I know you won’t regret it. Xx

Sorry I meant to quote @Catssitonhats with this post.

The listening/hearing and blaming thing is one of the hardest things. DH often explodes at me or the kids interrupting and we always explain we thought he was finished. Or sometimes I explain I was just agreeing, or making a sound to show I was paying attention (which is a normal way of interacting, I read a whole article about it) and that not all interruption is rude.

The other thing is about him listening, although this seems to have got better - but there was a time it was never the right time to tell him something, I couldn't tell him because he was eating, I couldn't tell him because he was busy, I couldn't tell him because he was relaxing... OK, when am I supposed to tell you anything and expect you to listen?!

Had a bit of a nightmare day today - started with a difficult ideological conversation with our oldest (there involved in some political activism and we both thought they were making their life harder by being overly morally perfectionist about something), then DS was trying to do some bloody French. I used the car at some time he'd rather have had the car so he missed the chance to take some stuff to the dump, then I had to drop him somewhere rather than him taking the car himself which stressed him out, as I had stuff to do I hadn't done earlier because I was so stressed about his mood. We have made it up now and I think tonight will be easier and I will finally get to the gym at some point this evening.

I have had this conversation with DH several times, he'll be like 'why did you/they assume this or that' or 'That wasn't at all clear' - I'm like 'People and communication are imperfect and also communication works by people making reasonable assumptions and sometimes they are wrong despite their best intentions.'

Because I think that is how it works, we can't check every little detail of something, we can't tell how much other people will put two and two together. Drove me nuts when the kids were little and I'd tell him that I had to go, say, to collect a large object, from somewhere fairly far away, with the car on Saturday. From which you'd expect someone to gather that they would be responsible for the kids for some time. Then the day would come and he'd be 'Hang on, so you'll be out all day with the car and I'll have the kids?!' Yes, I shouldn't have to explain that!

@BustyLaRoux that sounds beyond infuriating. I can so relate to what you’ve said. I say something to DH and look at him waiting for a reply and after he says absolutely nothing at all, I assume he hasn’t heard me and repeat. Then he gets angry saying I said X - but he didn’t! And he says so much to me while walking ahead with his back to me - I can’t hear a bloody word and tell him so. And then it’s me being difficult. And the constant need to blame is just bizarre and soul destrying!

Bloody hell - I’m so please you guys uinderstand these ‘little things’ that I just bonkers and impossible.

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore ❤

Same here about DH not indicating in any way whether or not he's heard something and then getting annoyed if I check that he's heard.

And assuming that I've heard him regardless

Yes @LoveFoolMe so that.

Hmm. I’ve had a LONG time being told I was difficult, very sensitive etc etc. so this is potentially something to do with autism?

I get the not sure if he’s listening too. I talk and get no reply and ask if he’s heard and he will tell me he has nothing to say.
if I want to talk about anything then I’m told that it can only happen at a certain time of day because otherwise he can’t concentrate. He also seems to always be so defensive it’s exhausting

Mine is either doing the crossword, exercising on his rowing machine, playing his guitar, listening to music or watching “homes under the hammer” or similar shows on a strict schedule (we are retired). And cannot be interrupted in any of these activities. When he does have a few unscheduled minutes he may address me from another room or even wander into the room I’m in and talk with his back to me. He talks to himself a huge amount (aloud) so it’s really hard to know when I’m supposed to be involved. It’s very very odd to look back and remember what I imagined as a younger woman that my relationship would be, and how far away from that this is.

Possibly but it also a form of gaslighting, whether it's done as a means to control or not. I've has this a lot!

@Echobelly yes there seems to be an inability to make the connection between saying 'I'll be out doing x, y or z' and them understanding that this means they will be looking after the kids during that time. And that the car will be elsewhere!

In this house, it’s me who often says he is not listening!!
Because of the many many times, I’ve explained somethimg or told him ‘this will happen, you need to do xyz’ etc… and he seems to just discover that the particular thing is happening or that xyz needed to be done (and that’s even if he has done the thing before and did xyz then!)

Its like he hears stuff but he isn’t listening, ie taking any notice if what he heard iyswim

Oh it’s that too @SpecialMangeTout3 ! Impossible to live with

I’d take that as HIS interpretation.
In his ND mind, your reactions are off (too emotional, not rational enough etc…) and because perspective taking/switch isn’t his forte, he can’t hold at the same time the idea that he is finding you too sensitive etc… AND it’s also ok to be like that.

I dint think it’s gaslighting. But it does feel like that on our end certainly.
If it was an NT/NT coupke, we probably say it’s simple incompatibility.

Thing is, if he says he's doing something, I automatically run through what the implications are for me so any issues can be dealt with, but he doesn't do the same.

We had an issue where only after it was too late did DH realise oldest DC had gone to do something that he didn't want them to do on his birthday (also eve of a major Jewish festival) and we were literally talking about it in front of him that morning. Even if somehow we'd never told him the date (and I'm sure we had) he'd been in room when we were discussing it multiple times and evidently heard the conversation to an extent both DC and I could not believe he would not have picked up that the plan was for that thing to happen on that day!

That makes a lot of sense. It sounds very binary. If you have emotions outside of what they think is right then those are wrong. It has taken me a long time to get to the point of not thinking that I am wrong because I’ve always been told I was too sensitive etc. I can accept that people think differently to me. It’s very black and white. I can’t imagine living in a world where everything outside of what o thought was just wrong. It must be hard to think like this.

Keep getting some advert for a seminar with Gabor Mate.
Advert shows a 10 second extract of his presentation where he says:
”The oerson you’re going to marry is the one that will trigger all the trauma/pas wounds you haven’t dealt with”

I don’t if others feel it’s true for them too.
But dh certainly has been triggering all of them! There’s some interesting parallel between how he is and how my parents were/still are.

I am in fact wondering if my OH, who is diagnosed with ADHD and many autism traits, does not in fact also have borderline personality disorder.

I have learned some things about BPD from my therapist, a psychologist who treats me for ADHD but has a lot of BPD patients too, and various podcasts.

These are the 9 BPD traits. I give OH at least 6.
Per my therapist, I have 3. The diagnostic threshold is 5.

https://www.amenclinics.com/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/

How's your list looking?

Anyone else got a potential borderline on their hands? I'm not sure if knowing about BPD would help someone who has it. My therapist said often it doesn't help them. Psychologists and psychiatrists will work it out and go to appropriate treatment and meds, but often let BPD patients call it something else (depression, ADHD, and PTSD - BPDs like PTSD because trauma can be blamed on other people).

The reason I think OH probably is BPD is that he is not a narc, definitely, but he does a lot of DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender). He has been told he has 'complex' PTSD and attributes the cause of this to his mother and ex-wife. His siblings are nothing like him. His ex-wife seems nice.

The other reasons include that he cannot seem to tell the difference between the way something has made him feel and whether the feeling is connected to an internal trigger or a fact. If I say no to OH, reasonably, he behaves like an angry toddler. He drives like a loon if someone apparently 'cuts him up,' he tries very hard to say sorry but just can't manage to and he binge eats with a history, before I met him, of heavy cannibis use.

ADHD meds have had very little affect on his emotional instability and he has upped the dosage quite a few times. And while psychs apparently do not always tell patients they think they have BPD, OH's psych prescribed him seroquel, telling him it was 'for sleep.' This is the only prescribed medicine he refused to take.

Below is an example of his DARVO from two weeks ago. I just don't think its autism or ADHD. This is not every day or even every week, but once he goes into DARVO brain he stays there for days on end.

Anyone else experiencing this in a partner they believe - or who themselves believes - they are simply neurodiverse?

Me: Hey, I really wish we could have more date nights
OH: We have loads of date nights
Me: We last went out to dinner 9 weeks ago. You have cancelled the last three date nights to take your kids to cricket matches. I don't mind what happened before. But we can plan better? I am making a request about the future, starting next week.

OH: You're jealous of my kids. You're obsessed with taking my time away from them. They need me. Anyway, they are more supportive of me than you are and they're only kids. Leave my kids alone. You remind me of my mother.

Me: This is not the topic under discussion.

OH: I feel so bad when you put a conversation on guardrails like this. I just don't feel heard (weaponising sth I once said). I don't feel safe (same again). I just need a relationship where I can feel safe. Oh, woe is me, how did I ever end up in this situation? I just can't take anymore. (Starts crying, or swears and storms off.)

Days later, he has 'therapy' (this is an hour per week that he appears to use to confabulate narratives about what I have done wrong, which I'm sure the therapist patiently tries to steer him away from). He says he feels better and wants to talk. He mainly wants to tell me things he has worked out 'about our relationship.'

OH: I have realised that we both (mutualising, BPD trait) have real problems with emotional regulation. We both have childhood trauma don't we? We are both likely to blame out of feeling shamed.

Me: I am not sure I recognise all of that. I had a difficult upbringing but I tend not to blame people. I tend to apologise too often. But apologies are good because I feel grown up, and not like I have shame.

OH: (Sneering). Oh I see! I see what you're doing! You're using the fact you give such mature apologies to shame me because you think I don't apologise as well as you do! This is so insulting. Why can't you give an authentic apology? What's wrong with you. Jesus, I come out of therapy ready to make amends and you just can't let me. You're addicted to drama. You get adrenaline out of it.

Me: have you noticed how when I bring something up that has impacted me, I then am expected to comfort you for how the feedback made you feel? What happens to the need I was expressing the other day about date night? Can you validate it?

OH: God, stop analysing everything. You sound like a therapist. Stop weaponising words you've learned in therapy to win and control things, its so manipulative. I think you have issues from your childhood you need to look into or some sort of personality disorder. You are projecting all of your issues onto me instead of dealing with them.

I think it'd be a good idea to be very cautious about diagnosing someone with BPD. It's notoriously a diagnosis that fits some people, but is very easily misdiagnosed as cPTSD and vice versa. The two are different, but psychiatrists have made a lot of mistakes in this area. Women have also been often diagnosed with BPD in the past when in fact as the field developed it became clear they are actually autistic.

Which doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

But whether he does or doesn't, refusal to take any responsibility is one of the death knells of a relationship, and so is DARVO. If conflict can't be discussed and genuinely resolved - and what you described is anything but resolved - then diagnoses aside, the relationship will be permanently limited and stunted at best.