Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 15

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5245372-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-14?page=39&reply=143014416

Yes I agree. It’s traumatic for me to have a mum who can’t meet my needs. I can’t leave her and get another. I do sometimes feel sorry for these partners. It’s like taking a person in a wheelchair to therapy to just get them to walk a little so we can walk together because I like walking. If your partner doesn’t like sex or intimacy or holding hands because they have a disability the onus is the other person to decide if they can have a relationship with this fact. If you can’t it isn’t sustainable to wait and get angry and cry. Being ASD or ADHD isn’t a choice to just not like things because they don’t feel like it. Im not sure but this doesn’t feel like a productive way to live. It’s like trying to force a relationship with someone who just isn’t a match really. I can’t force my mum for a relationship. I have to take what I have and there isn’t enough for a relationship other than a surface one so that’s what we have.

I think it’s a bit more complicated.

Im a wheelchair user. I can’t go walking. But I can go ‘for a walk’ with dh. Even in the countryside. You need to be more careful about the paths. You might need to get a specific wheelchair for that but you can still share long walks.

The not holding hands or asking about your day might be modified, accomodated so it fits both the ASD person and their partner.

Sometimes Theres space for creating something different that can work for both.
And sometimes, Theres such incompatibility that you can’t build a bridge.

What I’ve created with dh isn’t my ideal marriage, nowhere near. But it’s functional. Stress isn’t there anymore. And it fulfils (some if) our personal needs. I’m not naive enough to say it will be forever. But it’s good enough for now.

I get that it can work. But I’m not sure I could get past the fact that my partner is doing it because I want them to and not because they want to. Can a relationship be built on these foundations. Relationships aren’t supposed to be this difficult are they?

Agreed, that’s what masking is basically

I didn’t mean masking though. Because masking is about not being yourself. And I don’t believe in asking someone who is autistic to mask within their relationship.

Whereas I was referring to making an effort for the other person.

And surely everyone does that in a good reiationship? You compromise, adjust, take the other person needs into account just because you care for them.

I’m pretty sure that is masking because the autistic person won’t do this naturally. I think this thinking is what ties us into relationships going round in circles. This isn’t how an asd person thinks but what the other person hopes. Then the asd person gets the blame when it’s the hope that is fuelling the relationship. I have to say that ASD people in my life have never really promised me anything, I’ve been the one to hope for more.

Update - and I need your advice.

Before I get to the needing advice bit below - DH and I did talk in the eve. He reiterated he wants a peer not a victim and when I said I literally have no idea if he is attracted to me or feels anything more than flat mates as there are no physical or verbal cues. He said ‘why do you even need to ask?’ I find it so annoying that you’ve asked. Just accept I do and move on. I don’t want to have to lift you up. And I hate weekends with you and then if there’s an argument, we have to wait until you’re not angry and move into victim mode so we can talk.”

I’m going to address this fully in couples counselling, which he suggested we do again asap. At least it’s his idea. I find it so cruel and disrespectful. Or maybe I’m too sensitive.

The advice bit ...

It seems that our 16 year old DS heard absolutely everything, and also me leaving the house.

He’s blanking DH completely. I went to say good night and he told me he’d heard - also saying “marriage counselling doesn’t seem to be helping does it”. I said things will improve but he said ‘yeah right’. I asked him if I’d upset him at all and he said no. I hope that was true. He said he’d spoken to his girlfriend about it - and probably his other friends too - we socialise with his bestie’s parents, so they probably know now too.

He isn’t speaking to DH at all. His older sister told me today that he told her at lunch time today what had happened and it was the first time she’d seen him cry since he was small.

I told her we’re going to have more counselling. She said we don’t care if you split up. We just want you to find someone lovely that you deserve. 😢

She asked if I was crying in the hotel room and I said no I wasn’t, I was cross! She said ‘oh good I’m so pleased. The thought of you being sad all alone is too much to bear’. She asked me not to tell DS she’d said anything for fear of him not trusting her to talk to about stuff again.

I told DH that DS knows everything - but DH has made no attempt to talk to him about it, or even ask if he’s ok or wants to say / ask anything. He just said ‘so he’s mad at me and if we get divorced then I will lose the kids. Yet another thing to think about ...’

How can I help DS - he’s very closed but clearly stressed.

I really want DH to know the impact of his behaviour - which he totally thinks is justified - but I don’t want to get DS in to trouble either. So I’ve left it. DS absolutely needs to talk through stuff with whoever he wants.

He’d bought some flowers for his girlfriend so while he was sorting them out, I started cooking next too him (an hour too early!) but just so we could get some side by side time and light hearted talk together. He seems quite but happy to engage with me as usual. So I think he just cross at DH for what he heard rather than cross with both of us for arguing.

Sorry to hear that Cinnamon, that’s really rough :(

@CinnamonTart things aren’t looking well are they?

Can I ask? Would you like advice about your dh or about your ds?

Thank you guys. Is it me?

advice on both would be helpful - DS the priority though.

Cinnamon the single biggest problem here is that you are expecting your husband to comprehend the impact of his action.

He hasn't comprehended his action regarding intimacy, and I suspect other things. Why do you expect him to comprehend the effect of his actions on your son?

I think you need to take a good long look at the way you operate and the way he operates and, I'm afraid, really see that he is not working from the same manual as you. No blame; just different. But banging your head on the wall trying to get him to see won't work.

At the moment you're asking the coffee maker to wash the clothes.

@CinnamonTart I really do believe that in your husbands head you are to blame. How will he see the consequences of his behaviour when he fully believes that his behaviour is justified. You need to take this information at face value and decide whether you can have a relationship knowing this as a fact. The argument is your fault, your wanting of intimacy is your issue. He isn’t lying he is literally telling you you are to blame but you are want to reason with him. This is who he is. It’s horrible but your thinking is going to keep you in this relationship.

For what it’s worth I prefer your thoughts on how a relationship would be your partner has a different set of ideas to me.

Cinnamon I’m afraid both your kids can see things are broken. I think they recognise what you don’t that your DH is not capable of being the person you need. Whether this is an active choice or simply who he is doesn’t change the fact he won’t change. Be present for your DS so he still feels confident in your relationship and think hard about what you’re trying to salvage as neither of your children appear to think there’s anything worth salvaging and they see it day in day out.
I’m really sorry but I don’t think counselling will do anything other than make you feel awful and him feel justified. Plus he hates your emotions, they probably feel like a demand he can’t respond to and counselling certainly won’t change that. Plus I’m concerned that if DH is pushing for counselling, but doesn’t see any issues in how you currently communicate as a couple it’s because he thinks it will fix you and prove that he is in the right.
Oh and there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification on how he feels, it’s a perfectly legitimate question if his words/actions have been unclear to you.

I never looked at emotions looking like demands. Can someone really look at your emotions as a demand on them? How can someone not want to make someone feel better. It makes sense because every time I’ve needed support my mum would not be there. Does it just make them feel uncomfortable?

@Peppasparty yes that’s how he sees them. He sees them as me manipulating him into responding / doing something about them. Which he hates.

@Pashazade They find if very difficult when he explodes / misreads and over reacts with them etc - they find him quite aggressive and rude and emotionally unavailable.

@DucklingSwimmingInstructress yes you are right about that I’m sure.

DH says he doesn’t want to get a divorce as we’re brilliant 80% of the time and he thinks counselling will help to give us some tools. He says he feels secure in the relationship and acknowledges that I don’t and perhaps tools will help this. He trusts and likes the counsellor and I think will respond well to whatever he says. I’ve decided to give it a year in my head and see where we end up. Our child with special needs will find it incredibly stressful if we split up.

I look back at my childhood. A parents main responsibility is make their child feel emotionally safe. Without this everything is about surviving. My parent says “don’t make a fuss”. We are taught emotions are not wanted. There is no relationship if there is no emotional safety there is some kind of attachment but not love and safety.

I agree @Peppasparty

@Peppasparty I think when you struggle to understand emotions and perhaps don't understand your own, then you don't have much concept of some emotions being something that happens rather than something we initiate (if that makes sense). I can control my frustration at my son's refusal to do work, but not stop myself feeling hurt or upset if someone yells at me. You and I both recognise that difference, we accept that our environment can trigger certain responses. If you have never learnt what those emotions are or that there are differences between them, if you yourself struggle to express these things then I guess emotions from other people can feel like a demand, because you're aware that some sort of response (our general social conditioning) is required but you don't know what to do with it because it is an alien concept to your own experience. This thread makes it very apparent that for some autistic people being able to put yourself in other peoples shoes is almost impossible. I'm firmly of the belief that autism has two separate branches, empathic and non empathic.

@CinnamonTart would you say you're brilliant 80% of the time? Or is that DH's perception of life provided you constantly adjust your own and the children's emotional needs and general life preferences to being less important than his? If you concur that's good, but I'm curious to know if your realities match.

I absolutely agree with everything everyone has said @CinnamonTart. What you want him to feel isn’t possible. We’ve often talked about acceptance. It’s the hardest thing to do.

It sounds like your kids have had enough of him to be honest. They see he isn’t meeting your needs. They love you and they want better for you. I know you want your DH to talk to your DS, but to what end? What would you want him to say? That he’s sorry he was so horrible to you? Sorry he can’t give you what you needed to hear? The truth is (and I am sorry to be blunt) but he isn’t sorry. He doesn’t see he’s done anything wrong. He actually thinks you’re to blame by the sounds of it. His focus is entirely on his own feelings. HE doesn’t want to deal with your feelings. HE doesn’t like you acting like a victim. As @Pashazade said, to him your emotions are just demands. He hasn’t given your feelings or your DS’s feelings a single thought. I’m not saying he’s an awful man. It’s the whole coffee machine and clothes washing analogy. He can’t be what you want him to be. Your kids can see it. Counselling seems unlikely to change that. When I was having counselling with DP a few years back, our counsellor said about half the couples he sees don’t stay together. Counselling isn’t a fix. It shines a light on what is. And in a lot of cases it shows that it isn’t possible to make it work.

As for advice, my advice is learn to accept what he is. Learn to live without what you need. Stop wishing he were different. Stop fighting it. Stop trying to make him see. He can’t. Or think about leaving. Staying and aching for things to be different is slowly killing you. Accept or leave. They’re your only choices as far as I can see.

Sorry @CinnamonTart I’ve just read your update. I posted before I read it. DH wants the counsellor to fix your emotions, by the sound of it. He still doesn’t see that HE is the one that needs to address how you feel. He wants the counsellor to give you some tools to fix yourself. I’m afraid with a lot of the partners described on here this is how they view emotions. As a thing to be fixed. And how nice for your DH that he can defer the job of fixing yours to the counsellor! He seems to be saying you should stay together because HE is good 80% of the time. He recognises you’re having feelings which mean you’re obviously not good. So get a counsellor, get you fixed, job done. He doesn’t seem to understand that he is required to do the hard work. Counselling isn’t a tick box exercise. It’s actually really hard work.

Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps you are good 80% of the time. And just really sad the other 20%..? By all means do whatever you need to do. If you think counselling will help then of course give it a go. I suspect it won’t be the magic fix that he thinks it will be. But no one can say you didn’t try. We stay in these relationships for a variety of complex reasons. In my case there was a lot of good stuff and DP can listen and change. It was enough to make me want to keep going. I’m glad I did. It’s worked out well. We are in a really good place now. It wasn’t counselling which helped us. I think it was using the positives as a springboard to make some difficult decisions. But if there aren’t enough positives things in your relationship then that’s going to be hard.

I suppose what I’m saying is by all means try. But be aware it may not be enough. Coffee machines don’t generally wash clothes. Sometimes things just are.

“Learn to live without what you need”. What a statement….and how sad and how complex but also how easy does it sound. Wouldn’t this just be such a simple fix if it was in anyway possible….which it isn’t and which is why we are all on here failing really to achieve. We need what we need no matter what we tell ourselves. I need something I’ll never get and I can never divorce and perhaps try another mum. At least it is possible for those who can divorce to try and find this. Happiness isn’t out of reach.

Agree with everything Busty has said.

from my own perspective I spent about two decades trying to make my relationship work. It never has worked really, the ultimate cause being my wife’s total lack of desire to communicate

it dragged me down in the end, trying and failing to make things work better. I started suffering with depression and all sorts.

the biggest turning point by far came when I gave up, and mentally signed out of the relationship. Life improved a lot after that. I am now a much happier and easy going person than I ever was during those years. I get on great with the kids, W and I get on ok, on a mundane level, and I try and get a lot of what’s missing from my relationship from elsewhere, I had a really lovely chat with a very smiley lady at the allotments the other day, it’s put me in a good mood for the last 2 days lol

The physical side I miss terribly but it’s not so important to me that I want to bin everything else. Or not at the moment anyway

@apex has described exactly what I mean @CinnamonTart and @Peppasparty. He’s learnt to live without his needs being met. Is he skipping around with joy? No. Is his marriage great? No. But he’s learnt to accept and stop being constantly upset, let down, frustrated and disappointed. Acceptance isn’t the key to a happy life. It’s the key to a less miserable one. And if you cannot leave, for whatever reasons, then it’s the only alternative, in my view anyway. At some point we have to stop wishing our partners were totally different people. We have to accept them for who they are. We have to find ways to bring happiness into our lives in other ways. Or else we spend our lives in turmoil, trying to change what can never be. It’s not a perfect solution. It’s a workable one.

My mother was an alcoholic. Not when I was young. But she became one when I was in my 20s. It got worse and worse over the years. I loved her dearly but she had changed irrevocably in the last few years. My brother couldn’t accept the new her. Kept trying to find a way back to who she was. It made him frustrated and upset. I, on the other hand, accepted this was the way she was now. Did it hurt? Yeah. It did. But I made my peace with it. I took the good bits and let the shit stuff wash over me. It was how I coped. But my brother remained in anguish. Unable to accept. Unable to understand. I would say that he suffered a lot more than me because of that.