Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 15

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5245372-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-14?page=39&reply=143014416

The person might who is the lover as who’s to say what love feels like to them but the recipient I doubt. I think that’s the problem really. If you don’t feel something does it even exist?

I am 99% sure my mum (who is in her mid-eighties) is autistic. She had four children (I'm the youngest). She was never physically or verbally affectionate, but she kept us clean, well-fed, and looked after us if we were ill. She is a very difficult and particular person. Fortunately, my dad is a hugger, so he filled the gaps, to some extent. I remember as a teen accusing my mum of not loving us (meaning me and my siblings) and her being horrified. So I do get where you're coming from @Peppasparty . I didn't feel like she loved me, but I now understand that she does, she just shows it in her own way, which in her case is, as others have said 'Acts of service'. I am my own kind of peculiar and struggle to keep in touch with those I love properly, but do show affection to them in other ways. I find all this talk of 'actual love' and 'deep, mature love' very uncomfortable and judging. This may well be because I recognise that I have shortcomings and worry that others may perceive the way I love them to be inadequate. I don't know, I just try and accept that others are the way they are and may not be able to be another way, even if I really want them to, and hope that they can extend the same understanding to me.

No I don’t think they can

See now this is the kind of thing I do (ADHD). Just double booking myself. Meaning to do something, knowing I have to do x in half an hour, and then losing focus and ending up forgetting and missing an appointment!

I think we are all being judged unfortunately rightly or wrongly, it’s just part of life. I expect one day my own kids will judge me as a parent. I hope they feel loved. If I said to my mum that I don’t feel loved I would get a reply which would be dismissive, something like that’s a shame as it’s not true. It may not be true but it’s how it feels. Most people need more than acts of service to feel safe in their vulnerablility. I can’t be vulnerable to my own mum, she has no tools to deal with this so will dismiss you. Can there be love without vulnerability? It sounds like a very superficial love, a fair weather one side of a coin love for a complex human.

It seems a bit one-sided to me not to be able to accept and love someone despite their failure to live up to your expectations of what they should be if they can't be otherwise. I have given up trying to change anyone else - not that I don't find people I love exasperating at times!

I can love someone with flaws, if those flaws are completely opposite to what having a relationship is about. For example, I don’t get visited, messages, asked if I’m ok if I’m sick or the kids are sick, not visiting them or having any interest in them etc etc. If I hold onto love and remove the expectations then what really is there…me sat at home thinking it’s all ok she loves me really despite zero connection. What is there to love? She’s a person not an ornament she has to do something.

What an interesting discussion. I’m really sorry @NDornotND if comments about “real love” have been offensive in any way. Certainly not my intention. I don’t judge anyone for the way they love. I try to understand it is all. But the language I’ve used was blunt, so I really do apologise .

I guess when it comes to love there are two people. The person who loves and the person being loved. It’s OK for the person who loves to love in the way which is right for them (acts of service, affection, whatever) but if the person on the other end feels that this isn’t adequate for them then it’s also OK to say they don’t feel loved. It doesn’t meet their requirement.

I do feel loved by DP. I can see he equates this with acts of service. He is also quite affectionate. More than me probably. But I can also think that he doesn’t really understand what I need from a mutually loving reciprocal relationship. Maybe I am at fault for not making it clear but I need someone to listen to me. To really listen. To empathise. To stop thinking in terms of their own feelings some of the time. To do what is kind and put their need to be right to the back. To say nothing sometimes. To think of me when I’m not there. To wish good things for me, even if that means they have to sacrifice something. To accept me. To treat me with respect. To humour me when I’m being a dick. And if I’m being truthful I’d say DP does about half of these things, or maybe slightly less than half. Perhaps it’s unrealistic to expect all of that from one person. I guess if we all made our lists, we would have different markers of what we want from a loving relationship. And you’re right to say that just because a person doesn’t meet all of those, it doesn’t mean they don’t have “real love”. That’s a crass term. It is real. It just doesn’t meet the other person’s requirement.

This is a really helpful discussion.

i asked DH how happy he was in our marriage. He said 9/10. Seemed sincere. I was amazed, but then, it makes sense, he does only what suits him, 100% of the time. So he would be happy.

he didn’t ask me how happy I am.

but I have asked that of myself many times…

Life isn’t a film, it doesn need to be a perfect love. But loneliness is not good for humans.

And breaking your vows, to love and cherish, sickness and in health (if you made them) is not ok.

Is this maybe what is meant by incompatibility?

I think there are many many questions around love and loving and what it means depending on whether you’re NT or ASD.
But for me p, if love is defined by intimacy and knowing the true person in front of you, then the neurological differences between ASD and NT and the fact we experience the world so differently means it will be extremely hard both for the autistic person and the NT to achieve that.

And then there is loving part - which again can be at odds between autistic people and NT. The obvious example being a cuddle. Something essential for many (most?) NT (women?). But can be seen as an imposition, too much sensory input etc… by an autistic person wholl prefer the ‘parallel play’ as a way to bound.

So I think my conclusion is that feelings are probably the same. The caring for the person is there. But the meaning behind it, let alone how it’s expressed isn’t.
And this discrepancy then leads to unmet needs on both sides.

I played with AI around that question and arrived to an answer that I think summarise well the challenges we’ve had.
Quite happy to share that if people want. But be aware it’s very long!!

I find it hard to connect without the vulnerability. It isn’t enough to simply just think that someone loves me because they do something or they say it or you like the same hobby. You have to feel that you are loved in a way that kind of ignites your senses. I need to know that the person considers me even when I’m not present. An ex of mine would never msg me to say he was running late or going to the pub for a drink after work. He never considered me even though he said he loved me. My partner now msgs me every day when he is leaving or if he is late. I am considered as a person who matters. I exist outside of himself and so do my feelings. I need to matter in a relationship. Which is why I find my mum so difficult. I don’t matter outside of something that affects her or of the things she deems matter. She can’t comprehend why something bothers me that doesn’t bother her.

DH often gets emotional saying how proud he is of our DC but I sonetimes find it quite jarring that he'll say that , and yet, not listen when they tell him things, walk away mid sentence, not entertain the idea of going to their choice of restaurant, tell them he's coming to an event but then prioritise work or miss an award ceremony because it clashed with his hobby....

Words say one thing when often actions suggest something different. (I'm not sure how DC interpret this, I've never asked them)

Committing to too many things at the same time is an ADHD trait of DH....but when pointed out that there's a clash, family stuff comes out bottom 95% of the time - including his own family - siblings, parents etc. Thinking ahead is also a big stumbling block and I just don't think that considering how someone might feel if you promised something and then don't go through with it (^and don't tell them) comes into his mind.

I'm sure he does love us but I think we mostly have to hear it, and believe it, not necessarily feel it IYSWIM.

Aut = self

self is top of mind

what is currently being seen and thought about is the sole focus

I think it’s because they get their needs met more through the other things than they do their family. It’s doesn’t do much for them. I feel they often do the family as a tick box exercise and not because they get anything out of it. Perhaps it’s part of the mask, it’s what they should do and what other people want rather then what they really want to do.

My brother is very clearly ND although nothing done about it. He was very emotional. He is addicted to his job, it’s his whole life and all he talks about and his face lights up over it. My SIL enables this. She is ok being effectively a single mother as he is never at home. He will pick work over birthdays of us all including his kids. Because of this they have a large house and all the latest of everything but all of them are distant and don’t prioritise family or friends and they invite none over. It doesn’t bother them. My brother does prioritise my mum though and she listens to him constantly talk about himself and his work and they share a hobby and that’s all they talk about. He has no friends or no bother with the rest of us. He is simply not bothered and his wife has become accustomed to this and is very shy so it works. I could not live like this. Other members of my family have got a bit upset by the fact he doesn’t prioritise a connection. It’s just not important, he gets everything he needs out of his job, he works alone. He doesn’t need us, we are the ones who feel ignored. He says he’s prioritising his kids and giving them what they need money wise but he is neglecting the need of his kids to be connected to family and friends for his obsession with work.

I think there were many men who were like this in the past. It was socially acceptable.

And look at all the boarding school families - supposedly highly successful and wealthy but very little real connection.

Yeah it seems like an old fashioned belief. I don’t think it’s this with my brother. I think he is hiding his obsessions behind his views. I think his wife has slowly enabled it also because it means she can stay at home. She had a bad job experience a long time ago and won’t go back. Sometimes relationships just end up convenient. I’ll ignore this if you do this. My niece said they don’t even sleep in the same room so that he can get up whenever he needs to go to his job. His obsession with work has taken over. It’s definitely one track mind and his family sort of hide the obsession a little because he says he does it for them. It silly because what they need is a dad at home sometimes and parents who see family and friends to widen the kids lives.

I'm not offended @BustyLaRoux, no need to apologise. I am mindful that this is primarily a space for people having difficulties with relationships with ND partners to vent. I am pretty sure I am in an ND-ND partnership (as I know many others on here are) and believe that generally poses fewer inherent problems than those that where one partner is NT. The discussion today has highlighted just how different relationships needs are from an NT perspective, it makes me amazed anyone makes a mixed relationship work at all. Also romantic/life partnership dynamics are clearly different from those of a parent-child relationship. With a partner you can eventually accept that they won't change and decide whether or not you want to live with that, which is not easy, but I would think it's even harder to make that sort of choice about a relationship with a parent.

@NDornotND I'm also in an ND ND relationship/marriage with myself ASD and H likely ADHD (although we may be AuADHD!) Some issues discussed on here are more relevant than others but it's a lovely, supportive safe space to vent. I've also learnt so much on these threads and it's helped me understand the dynamics and frustrations in relationships involving one or more ND persons.

ND ND relationships can probably work better for ND people, but it depends ao much on how the ND presents. My main issue with H is his temper, the controlling behaviours and the contempt he treats me with when he feels under pressure/in demand/stressed or overwhelmed. It borders on abusive and is not healthy for me. Another ND person might withdraw/go blank or become flustered and teary (like me!) Not ideal either but less painful perhaps? I can be very cuddly and physically affectionate but I also need my own physical space at times (no spooning for me!), so that might not work for some partners, which is fair enough.

I think we are fighting against human nature. If we don’t feel a connection and we are wired for this (many of us) then nature is acting against us and we naturally detach. I suppose it explains why many people have affairs. If you are a person who isn’t wired to prioritise human relationships then it is natural that those people on the other end who do will pull away from you and that is deeply ingrained in out humanity. All the searching for reasons and the understanding of the conditions involved don’t touch that involuntary reaction to detach. We can’t have what the other person cant give us and we can’t stop the need either.

Losing a lot of friends due to DH having undiagnosed ASD. He prefers to stay in. Everyone is part of a couple.

Single without being single.... sigh...