Loan outstanding to our son is causing weekly abuse

[Tiredtrudy]

I'm not sure if I'm being the unreasonable one here. We moved two years ago. Our adult son (now 25) was living in London. Our mortgage offer came up £20k short and he covered the shortfall with a loan (we had maxed out on the house due to our ages). Payments to be paid by us, and his terms were he wanted to move in to save for a house deposit. That was eighteen months ago. During that time I became seriously ill and will not recover. I'm the high earner. I'm waiting to be medically retired. These things are never quick as insurance doesn't want to pay.
He has paid nearly all the monthly payments as I've been unwaged but never given us any keep. He might buy the odd takeaway. Anything he pays for is recorded on a spreadsheet which I didn't know existed until recently.
The monthly payment is £400 the same as many friends charge their adult DC. He eats a lot. He earns more than his father who is in his 60s and still working to keep a roof over our heads. We also have a younger DC at home who is at a local University.
Things have come to head as he wants to buy this spring. I haven't been able to confirm if I can give him this money back then. He is now forcing us to sell our home (which we do need to due for mobility reasons). We have equity in the house to repay him and move to a smaller property.
I'm now expected to give full weekly updates on our finances and any accessible work options I might be applying for. If I don't give him this information he flys into a rage screaming at me and telling me I've ruined his life.
The payments he has made are less than 10% of his take home pay.
He had mostly a private education and I paid off his sports car finance two years ago. He's never offered to take that off 'the bill'.
My DH has told him I'm ill and when the house is sold he can have his money. It doesn't seem to be enough. My husband things he's a privileged brat.
To punish us he refused to attend a family party at the weekend. Yesterday he shouted at me for an hour. I was crying. It turns out he had promised his GF a house last year. She was going to leave him as this hasn't happened.
Due to my health I am barely able to walk. I can't just go and work in a shop or warehouse. He does stay with his GF a couple of days a week and we all breathe a sigh of relief. I'm not frightened of him but he is so nasty to me. I don't know what to do.

You have obviously lived a very privileged lifestyle if you think money should be at the bottom of the list.

Money is unfortunately the most important aspect and it’s one of the biggest causes of stress when someone gets ill.

If you can’t afford your bills then what is going to happen.
The cancer isn’t going to go away just because you are homeless or can’t afford the bus fare to get to the hospital.

And this thread is about money.

I don’t think telling OP that money should be the last thing on her list is helpful, when she’s fully aware of the impact that having less money is causing her.

Yes it should which is why critical illness cover can be important

but actually here money cant be put to the back burner if there isn’t enough and there isn’t.

the OP needs to admit changing circumstances and the cancer (which actually wasn’t mentioned until at least half way through) means selling up and downsizing because that is an easy fix - they cannot afford the house anymore not matter what way it is looked at

I feel very sorry the OP has cancer but you can’t borrow 20k of your family and then argue about paying for private education etc. Yes, he should be paying the rent but not whilst paying the monthly debt repayment. It’s a mess and a lot of responsibility lies with the parents.

What have I just read? You would encourage someone to take their seriously ill parent to court? Fuuuuucking hell.

If the monthly payments are £400 then I'm assuming the term was perhaps 3 years? So hopefully the a good proportion of the loan is paid off if it was taken out 18 months ago.

I'd definitely do the spreadsheet OP. Include what you managed to pay before you became ill, and deduct his monthly rent that he's never paid ( this is a two way street and he can't demand what you haven't paid without addressing what he agreed to pay). What would be left? Could your DH get a loan to cover that amount and pay him back? Tesco do some cheap ones, and the rate is even more beneficial if you have a Clubcard.

You say you're insured OP, with life insurance by the sound of it. Did you not take out critical illness insurance on the mortgage?

I'd also calmly remind your son you are terminally ill and say you hope he'll reflect once you're gone and think about how he treated you in your final years. Give him something to think about. I'm so sorry about your illness 💐

Other than the abuse, I have sympathy for the DS. He took out a loan on behalf of his parents - I think very few parents would expect this. Due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, he unexpectedly ended up paying the loan himself, so he couldn't save for his first property purchase. He also probably can't get a mortgage with that level of debt hanging over his head. So much as the OP's life has been disrupted, so has the DS's, beyond the level that most young adults could tolerate easily.
You should never have let him take out a loan on your behalf OP.
DS's girlfriend also sounds like trouble - she expects a house from him? On what planet is that normal? So he's likely in a stressful situation with her too.
You should keep your own spreadsheet OP. Most of the issues with money come from poor communication and poor record keeping. Everything has a cost - make sure he knows the value of his rent (although I personally would never charge my young adult child rent).

You said earlier that he moved in with you 18 months ago, so 6 months after he gave you 2K, and that he has paid most of the loan payments since then.
So you paid it for 6 months = £2400 plus another couple of months. He’s paid it for 10 months = £4000. He’s paid the loan for money that you have, so in effect he’s paying twice. Why on earth would you expect him to also pay a further £300 a month for keep? The money he’s currently paying for the loan will mean you owe him less money when you do eventually pay it back. That’s where the ‘keep’ comes from!
When he gave you this money, what was the agreement as to when it would be repaid? Do you also realise that when you do sell your house you’ll only qualify for a much smaller mortgage as you’re no longer in paid employment?

But if he wants the loan gone in the short term then this is a way to do it

His parents will still pay for the duration of what the loan would be but this is a practical solution

Oh my fucking god, this thread is so frustrating. Once again, why are people blatantly ignoring the reason for all this. Cancer. Are you seriously saying if you were the son in this scenario, you'd treat your parent who was going through a serious illness the same? No ifs, buts or delays - money back pronto no matter what? Really? He should be telling OP not to worry about anything, he'll take care of the loan seeing as he's paid for fuck all else.

This has been going on some time & he wants to buy. I wouldn’t do this but I wouldn’t be lending my parents 20k in my early 20s and then paying the loan back.

My son inherits my pension and his sister the same. The house would be paid off through my husband insuring me. There is substantial equity.

But that doesn’t help him now does it.

And can you imagine how he must feel knowing the only way he can move forward with his life, is when his mum dies.

That’s where this frustration is coming from.

OP you said you need to sell because of your mobility issues.
You will be able to pay your son back with that money too.

So what’s happening with that?
Has there been any steps taken or even a plan on when you plan to sell?

The sheer audacity of you to say "no need to be rude" when you've just posted one of the rudest replies on here. 🙄

Oh boy, let me explain it in a way that may makes more sense.
The son is asking for £20k (plus interest) from his mom but he isn’t deducting the rent he owes her from this figure.

So imagine he’s already paid £10k to the bank in instalments of £400 pcm and has another £10k (plus interest) to pay.
If he started paying rent + food to his mon this would come to more than £400 PCM. Mum can then use that amount to take over the loan instalments, and anything left over she could pay back to her son towards the £10k he had already paid to the bank.
Of course there would be no need for this money to change hands (e.g son pays £500 to mother, mother pays £400 to the bank and £100 back to son towards her debt) and it should be enough for the son to continue paying the bank and to acknowledge that by living in his parents house he has a bigger financial benefit than the £400 he pays the bank. Unfortunately, despite working in finance, the son seems to be struggling with simple maths!

As for OP taking son to court, read my post again. I explained that IF the son was to take the mother to court for money she owed him, not the other way around. And not as a suggestion that he should do this, but to point out that the legal position is that debtors can not be forced to pay more than they can afford

You can change who inherits your pension - and in your position I would do so. I'd only allow 20k to go to him and the rest to your daughter, your husband or perhaps a charity for the victims of abusive men.

If your DH decided to divorce you, he would be able to claim half the equity and half your pension. Your DSs girlfriend is totally irrelevant in this.

Are you able to answer the questions I posed? They are all relevant.

The aggression and intimidation are 100% unacceptable

But speaking as someone who, for the best of intentions felt obliged to 'help out' older family members in my early 20s with loan/money/mortgage arrangements - being tied as adults into family finances is a recipe for disaster for everyone, both financially but also with relationships.

What seemed reasonable at 20 was certainly not OK at 27 when my life had moved on. I was in a relationship and we were thinking about our shared future/children - but my finances were tied up together with family investments, 200 miles away. So I had lots of financial obligations with none of the control of the day to day - and despite requesting an end to the situation/house sale to allow me to move on, buy a place to live in and so on, this wasn't a priority for the others, who were receiving the benefit of my money and credit being used, and quite happy with the situation. They could express apologies and guilt about it, without ever acting to sort it out - they couldn't see what difference a few years might make to it or me.

I did not become confrontational with them due to the distances and I couldn't see how it would help. Seeing each other infrequently meant I was able to keep the emotions out of the business, but it was a huge stress that gradually dominated my life, I felt resentful that despite my good employment and earnings I was struggling due to the extra drain on my finances, angry that I missed good opportunities to invest and save because my credit and money was tied up in their plans, missed out on first time buyers assistance, had lots of time to brood over it while on maternity leave in shitty rental flats, when served eviction notice at 5 months pregnant, while searching desperately for a new place to avoid my dc moving schools, being unable to make a real homely environment for the DCs. It certainly put strain on my relationship with DH and our financial arrangements in those years - we couldnt 'Leave and cleave' eg become a proper adult partnership making decisions together, because a lot of my finances were entwined with other peoples.

Eventually DM, who understood my side, intervened. Arguments were had, the situation was sorted, place made ready and sold. The money came to me, and I shared out exactly what had been agreed (apparently some people were nervous that I might 'cheat' them by keeping the money which is definitely one of those 'Every accusation is an admission' moments, but it wasnt even tempting, I just wanted the situation over after 10 years in all)

Within a day of receiving and sharing the money I got a phone call from 2 family members who had already mentally spent my share for me in their schemes- 'What you really want to do with the money is....' And at that point I went fucking ballistic, explained that I had had absolutely enough of them and their shenanigans, that my savings and credit rating were not a resource for them in any way, and that what I needed was a house for my own family, and to be able to get on with my life and priorities. It has left a degree of bitterness and certainly impacted how I feel about them, and how I will deal with finances in the future.

What I am trying to say is that you need to disentangle your finances from your son and make an end to this situation as quickly as possible and he can. I am sure, like my scenario, all your intentions were good, but then life, illness and changes got in the way, and now its not working for anyone. Hes certainly treating you badly with his behavior, but you are not treating him well and if it goes on too long unresolved will be hard to come back from.

I would suggest sitting down with him, put all the cards on the table. He needs to grow up and stop making ranty demands especially when you are ill, but you need to hear his side too. Hear him out, where he is at/and what his stressors/plans priorities are, and share yours, stress, chemo, warts and all, explain the pressures you are under. It might be very uncomfortable and air a lot of resentment on both sides but hopefully you all can come to a shared understanding of the situation, apologize to each other for the last few months, and make a realistic plan for how to disentangle everyone and move on.
And never blend money and family again, unless by gift giving of sums you can afford

@rebmacesrevda - a laughing emoji as a reply? Seriously. How immature.

@Tiredtrudy why is your DH not part of this? "My DH is not involved in this as it is my house but he inherits it on my death."

Is your DH paying towards the mortgage?

Do you realise that the pension providers have to agree to the beneficiaries of a pension?

£400 per month payments over at least 6 years not 3 years

Loan of £20k without interest and payments of £400 per month = 50 months/4 years 2 months. With interest at even 8% that is 4 years 7 months

Then she can change it and apply to them to change it

Your finances sound such a mess. You've all been spectacularly irresponsible.
Neither you nor DH has anything you can liquidate to raise the £10k balance? Why hasn't your DH already looked into loan? Why is your DH not involved? Presumably he is contributing to the mortgage and bills?

I didn't know the girlfriend had issued an ultimation but she is five years older than him. She has no deposit. He will be funding the lot.

Seems like a similar deal your DH got?

What I am trying to say is that you need to disentangle your finances from your son and make an end to this situation as quickly as possible and he can. I am sure, like my scenario, all your intentions were good, but then life, illness and changes got in the way, and now its not working for anyone. Hes certainly treating you badly with his behavior, but you are not treating him well and if it goes on too long unresolved will be hard to come back from.

Good post

Right so you paid £400 and he was to pay £300 in rent ( at some point because this is a bit unclear when that became a thing).

He didn't pay the £300 - but you paid £400 up to £3200 on a loan you needed but had him take out for you. So that seems to come to roughly 8 payments maybe.

Since you got ill he now pays the £400 on the loan - or it's defaulted and he in big trouble - but still isn't paying this £300.

So for first 8 months or so he owned you £100 - but for last 18 months he's been paying loan at £400 so has been paying £100 more than agreed. So he owned roughly £800 but has since ended up paying a hundred more each month so £18000 more than expected - so in effect you owe him £1000 - the figures may not be right but does look like you owning him not him owing you now is a strong possibility.

So he's been paying £100 more than agreed and has been for 18 months now - but you think you should get the £300 on top for rent. So he'd be paying £700 every month?

So £700 a month in London may not be a bad deal but it is much more than the original £300 or even £400 loan repayment. I think you may need to check what each of you understands the position to be here.

At same time he's either 20K in debt or you've tied up 20K of his savings in your house when he wants to move out and on.

Does he end up shouting when he tried to explain the money to you - is that why you keep brining up past money - because you are sure you are owned money and he's sure you owe him - and it worrying him you'll forget this 20K loan as well?

Upshot you need to sit down calmly with actual figures and go over what each of you understood and calmly find a way forward.