December 2024 - but we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

New thread

clare

Narcissists do not do well in therapy because they think there is nothing wrong with them.

Narcissists also have NO empathy whatsoever.

I would keep well away from your mother going forward. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

I've found the guilt creep in a lot as Christmas approaches.

The last time we attempted conversation about feelings, my mother told me she was old now (mid 70s), and could I not leave the past in the past or remember the positive stuff so we could "make the best of the time she has left". I see now how manipulative that is, but I'm fighting so hard mentally to not slip into the belief that it could be her / my Dad's last Christmas and here I am avoiding her calls and holding her at arm's length.

There's deep dysfunction in my family emotionally, an older sibling who lost her mind as a teenager and never recovered, a GC younger one who operates like an only child, but there was a lot of material stuff like money & hobbies & financial support that kept my own awareness at bay for decades. To be around my family has always been everything from intensely isolating to incredibly miserable, I get ignored at best, criticised and gaslit at worst, and all of that has gotten even worse since I started calling out the behaviour.

But if I don't check myself, I feel like the selfish, stubborn one who just can't get over herself and is going to regret my anger.

From the outside it looks like your DH has set up a situation where he plays the 'nice guy', things get tough, you react and are set up as the villain, and he gets to withdraw with hurt feelings. Its classic Karpman Drama Triangle (Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer).

I'm just thinking back to my last Christmas with 'family' two years ago. I was so hurt nobody thought of getting me a present. Like my brothers family would give my parents and the in laws something, including his SiL but not me. My niece crafted something which was lovely and cherished, but they arranged this for everyone and no adult thought of me. I was just always the 'single aunt'. I felt so lonely in this crowd of people because nobody had thought of me and everyone was unwrapping. Will never forget the feeling.

We spent Christmas dinner at my brother's with his in laws. My parents are always different people outside the home/amongst others. My father tried to feign illness so he could stay home. It didn't work. My mother was a ticking time bomb. You could sense the tension, but she wouldn't explode in front of others.

She was such a nightmare to be with. She could switch off being nice in second. I stayed at my parents and my niece asked if she could sleep over. My parents shut it down like they were in a dictatorship. I asked why not, I will look after her, and was told (shouted at) 'because I said so & I'm not going to enter a discussion with you' by my mother. This was highly triggering for me because that's how she spoke to me growing up.

They then made out to be the problem that they said no, totally ignoring that I said the problem is how they go about it and how they speak to me and my niece. They couldn't understand what I meant.

I pulled my mother up on all her behaviour, I was a crying mess back to being 14. It was awful. I tried to speak to them one last time, but they shut me down. My mother said 'i guess I have always been the problem' and that she's 70 years old and what I want from her at that age.

Because they have a 1bed flat I sat in the lounge crying for hours whilst they watched TV. I knew I was done. I knew a loving parent wouldn't have gone about this like that.

All this was very complex because I was never invited to stay over at my brother's to spend time with my niece. Shed previously asked and my brother says yes, so I went to get my duvet etc and as I was on my way I got a call to ask me not to come.

I questioned many times if I was the problem and just didn't know my blind spots. Like my parents who I have tried to tell a million times what my issue is but they 'have no idea what got into me by distancing myself'. But then my brother and his family continued to stay over at mine. I found it very confusing.

So now I'm out and whilst it is sad to be lonely at least I have peace. I wont be shouted at and be shut down. I can relax. I'm trying to remind myself why I got myself into this situation and how much better it is.

I remember crying on the whole way back home. All the time in the airport, on the flight. I just couldn't stop. I couldn't stop for about 18 months to be honest. God knows how I survived and managed to keep down my job etc.

So very sorry that happened to you twatalert💐. You're far better off out and away from your dysfunctional family of origin and hopefully they will further turn against each other.

@Twatalert 😢
I am so sorry
Merry Christmas from me 💕

Holy shit! I think my family are playing this out but I couldn't see it, until now.

Narc parent is persecutor, narc sibling reluctantly enables them whilst feeling victimised. I'm supposed to pander to narc parent too and pretend like everything is fine just like they're doing, making me the rescuer I guess.

Or is narc sibling the rescuer because they're happier to do the enabling than I am? I certainly feel like a victim but both of them act like I've no right to be one.

Narc sibling was the GC and I'm the SG, if that makes any difference. It's so darned complicated working it all out. I feel as if I'd like to though, to help understand what I've been experiencing lately and get some insight into what comes next.

One time I was unwell and couldn't do the required enabling. Narc sibling, for whatever reason, snapped and said something pretty unforgivable to me (although they have history for doing that so it didn't have the impact it might have done) and I was at that particular moment in time done with the lot of them for that particular time period. That had more of an impact on them than it would have done if I'd reacted that way on any other day, because that particular day was Christmas Day and I refused to see them until after NY. Meaning narc parent didn't get what they wanted.

The second I'd reacted, narc parent flipped the scenario, making themselves the victim (narc parent has always liked to act the victim) and narc sibling the persecutor. Even though narc parent was the one who started it all with their demanding narcissim in the first place!

So I was definitely left as the rescuer in this new scenario and I refused to do it. Even though narc parent must have made narc siblings life hell, because narc sibling doubled down with a manipulative nicey-nicey act, to try to coerce and cajole me into the rescuer role. I knew at the time their apologies weren't sincere and were as a result of experiencing the consequences of their actions, in the form of a tantrum from narc parent. I stood firm, because if I was in their presence the only words I was going to speak would be in anger (justifiably) and after what had just happened, for once I felt I owed neither of them anying. I also didn't want to be accused of starting a row.

I guess that would have meant they could flip the scenario again, if I'd complied then exploded. They could have branded me the persecutor. Leaving the rescuer to comfort the victim, whilst scapegoating me again for reacting to the way I'd been treated?

Things have never been the same since, now I think about it. So I have a question for you all -

What happens when two narcs both see themselves as the victim and the other as the persecutor (I think?), but both see me as the problem because I resist the role of rescuer and barely comply? Their triangle doesn't work, so what now? I can see no obvious third party to be manoeuvred into the role of rescuer, I think it may still be me, as unsatisfactory as they're finding me to be.

So does that mean they've flipped it again and I'm the persecutor now, in their eyes? Even though all I'm doing is minding my own business and living my life. Do they have to make me into the persecutor just so they can keep their triangle going, they can't survive without it?

Well done if you understood all that, it feels incredibly complicated!

@SamAndAnnie The Karpman Drama Triangle is a merry go round, with each person playing one of the roles in turn, and the roles lead on from each other.

If you refuse to play Rescuer you then become the Persecutor who's refusing to do the one thing they need.
Eventually they go over the top in having a go at you, and they become the Persecutor while you change roles to become the Victim.
Thats not their preferred place in the triangle so they'll manufacture a health scare or other emergency so they are now the Victim...
and so it goes on and on!

Thanks @Thelnebriati that at least makes sense of why I'm seen as so much of a problem. So they need me, don't they? Whilst at the same time secretly hating me? There can be no love there at all, there's surely no room for it. Any little there is is directed at themselves I suppose. They are going to lose the frigging plot if I go NC, aren't they? And whatever happens to them, that'll be "my fault" too, in their eyes. They'll hate me all the more. Not that I'll be there to witness it, I hope, unless they start stalking me or something.

@Twatalert maybe it did you some good to cry it all out 💐 got to be better than keeping it all in.

My niece called, she's only 10. She made her hair and I don't know what kind of spray she put in it as her mother walked in and gave her a dressing down. I'm actually crying, it was that loud and nasty. I feel so sorry for the girl. She's so excited. In her country they will open presents tonight. I don't know how as a mother you can loose it like that at your child on Christmas. The problem is this is normal in this household.

I'm so sad I can't be there with her because of how this family is. I cannot tolerate shouting like that and all the other abuse.

I'm missing out on so much with her. I told her she's beautiful and hair can be washed. She's just a girl on the verge of puberty who is experimenting.

I wanted to tell her mother to shut the fuck up and leave the girl alone. But I'd probably never be allowed to speak to my niece again. So I have become a bystander (enabler?) to hopefully be around my niece in the future. I'm thinking of the days when patterns will repeat. I'm NC with my parents and my SiL had a period of NC with hers. They are all highly dysfunctional. I want my niece to be able to turn to me when things get tough in the future. To not be alone like I was. I don't know if I'm doing it right.

It's so hard. My niece acted all cool and not bothered. Said 'its my hair and I can do with it what I want' but I know it means she's just suppressing stuff. She's so used to it she's already shutting stuff away. I witnessed the insane shouting and threats from when she was still a toddler. Nasty bitch.

I still carry the sheer terror of my mother's outbursts in my bones. Not the ones when I was 12. The ones when I was 2. That's how early stuff gets into your system.

Popping in stately homers to say hi and send love at Xmas.

It’s an incredibly hard time, whether you are still dealing with the abusive bastards or have escaped them.

My thoughts and solidarity are with you all.

much love,
monkey x

I would love some advice. Or thoughts or insights I guess. I'm a bit lost.

My father just called. My GC sister just got engaged. I got married 6 months ago & she was one of my bridesmaids. She was very supportive on the day, but caused a lot of stress in the lead up to it for both me and MOH best friend. Guy she's marrying wasn't even at the wedding, they're together about 8 months. He seems nice. She's a serial monogamous & met him weeks after introducing another guy to the family. There's been 5 boyfriends all introduced in as many years now.

Our relationship deteriorated when I tried to have a conversation with my mother about my childhood & how hurt I've felt by her favouritism & complete lack of support for me in contrast to my siblings. Said nothing to GC, but she blocked me on social media shortly after and we haven't spoken since.

No part of me wants to reach out to her. But I know I'll just be giving a lot of ammunition to them all if I don't. What would others do?

She’s blocked you. In theory you don’t know about her engagement or have any way of contacting her. I would just turn up if you’re directly invited to something and go from there. See what happens. But I wouldn’t reach out so to speak

I use what we call a 3 day rule. Do nothing for 3 days, so the emotions and your nervous system have calmed down and you've had time to think. If 3 days isn't enough, give it a week.

Put to one side how many boyfriends/length of relationship. This is not your business. Don't waste brain space or energy on it. (As the saying goes, mind your own business).

Given than your father reached out and not your sister, I would be wary about contacting your sister unless you're clear about what you want from it. Don't entertain thoughts about being involved in the wedding. Or thoughts about not being included.

What outcome would you like from this? What's the want v the should?

My angry parent was my father. I can still vividly remember the terror. No wonder I'm such a basketcase 😶

Need and hate fit very well together - some people need someone to hate/blame. This was something I realised about my father. He frequently said that being married and tricked into having children had ruined his life (sometimes to my face, with an expectation of sympathy). Strangely despite all this, he ever left. Because if he did, who would he blame/aim his spite at? Hating us allowed him to sit on his arse not working and taking drugs. What choice did he have? we had ruined his life after all.

I just wanted to pop on and wish everyone a peaceful and happy Christmas.

I'm grateful for this thread and all who post. Sending best wishes for the new year!

@SamAndAnnie what they do/say/feel between themselves if you go NC is not your problem. It's for them to figure out/deal with. And that's ok. They're adults. They can manage it. I know that when you think about going NC there can be a desire to inflict hurt on the way out, to make them feel something. I guess really it's about looking for evidence that you mattered to them in some way. If they want to blame you, that's their choice and there's nothing you can do about it. And do you know what?

Being blamed is fine. It's easy. I went NC with my narc father in my late teens. Never saw him again. Whatever furious shit he said about me afterwards, and I'm sure there was plenty, I wasn't carrying the weight of it. The funny thing is that when he died he disinherited me in his will. It was actually there, in black and white. His dying wish (the will was done v shortly before he died) was that I was to have nothing. So the bile and spite and hatred was still with him almost 25 years later.

But I was free. I felt nothing. Didn't disturb my emotional equilibrium at all.

This is such a measured response, which I am not right now, so thank you!

In this case I don't have 3 days as we'd planned to visit on Boxing day, sister will inevitably be there. She responded excitedly to my engagement last year, and over the years I've seen she really hasn't held the same resentment towards me. I guess it's easy not to when you're the GC and scapegoat is largely out of the picture. But it adds a layer of guilt if I don't respond in kind.

Completely true re not my business. Must let go of judgement, it's completely toxic and pointless.

The want: I just want to matter to my family. But I'll never get that, so I guess I want to have grieved them and to be able to be within a 5 mile radius without feeling completely small, triggered and unimportant to them. In this case the wound of not mattering or getting any kind of attention or interest is deepened by sister's big news. If it wasn't this, the conversation would've revolved around her stuff anyway, be that her job, life, new boyfriend, recent trip they took etc.

The should: I should congratulate her and and make a fuss and use it as a way back into a relationship with her. I should be thrilled for her.

TBH I was bracing for a pregnancy announcement from her, so this isnt as painful as it couldve been. She started telling me they were trying before she cut me off a few months ago. It cut deep as myself and DH are having awful fertility struggles which she knows about.

My Dad called and told me. She'll know that as everyone knows everything in this family. I'll probably wait to see if she tells me directly, if she doesn't which she probably won't I'll just leave her to it until I see her in a few days.

You don't have to be thrilled that she's getting married. You can feel whatever you feel. There's no right and wrong. It's not Disney. I would imagine what you're actually feeling is that it's unfair that a big fuss is being made over a relationship that hasn't been going on long enough to prove itself yet. But you know, maybe it doesn't. Maybe she has four husbands. Maybe it does last but it's miserable. Maybe it's the best marriage ever.

None of that is your weight to carry. You don't need to struggle with the mental weight of it. If it's going to fail it will fail whether you've used thoughts and energy up on it or not.

And don't go on boxing day if you don't want to. You are important, what do you want?

As an escapee of 15 years NC not a smooth process from my mother I hope you all find peace in time .

Best wishes to you all..

You are a really kind, wise and thoughtful person to be providing this kind of advice and support to a stranger. Thank you x

I've been talking to DH. He's kinda just rolling his eyes, but talking a lot of sense too. GC is mad to settle down, this was inevitable and it's not my news to judge or to hold. She'll be pregnant soon too, life's gonna life. I can't be at the risk of mental breakdown every time these things happen. It has a real impact on him too.

He reminded me that GC doesn't have it easy either, and she's not deep or emotionally mature enough to even know what her trauma/ our family is. She can't see her own, of course she can't and will never see mine. My nmum will be my nmum, she'll be high as a kite and thick as thieves planning with GC, and if I'd had been compliant with being an obedient loyal daughter in her mirror image, letting her make all of my decisions, gossiping and judging the world around her, obsessed with status and money and what the neighbours think, I'd have had her attention too. But I don't so I won't and my wedding was my wedding too.

Sister sent a photo to the family WhatsApp, so I've said congratulations and well go up with a bottle of champagne on Thursday and leave as soon as we need to. I don't know if any relationship with these people is viable long-term, but I'm not about to start defying my own values and integrity as I try to navigate things.