December 2024 - but we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

New thread

Quite frankly we are all AMAZING to have survived!

We're heroes.

When I started grey rock (years ago, before I even knew what it was), that's when attempts to buy my affection started. It was as if, if they couldn't get it for free they'd try to purchase it. All hell would have broken loose if I'd insisted on refusing a gift of item or money (I tried and backed down upon them becoming affronted). So I just accepted, as the easiest route to harmony. But - I was still grey rocking. They didn't get what they imagined they would be purchasing. This caused them to become angry. I came to realise that hatred is definitely the undercurrent I'm getting from them.

I moved last year half way across the country from a house that I had done up over the years to here. My new house has great bones and most importantly a brilliant secluded garden that backs on to woodland.

However I would say the decor is crack den. The decorator is finally starting in a couple of weeks and my youngest, the dog and i are escaping to a holiday cottage nearby.

The decor on my old house was lovely but there were a lot of very good quality things that Mum had given me.

I'm selling all her stuff, including her jewellery. She had good taste but it's not MY taste. I'm really excited.

We did bond over that, we're both very interested in design and decor. She was obsessed with red and green though which I find repellant.

It's a different light in this house too, I decided to sit with it for a few months to see what it needs.

Sorry that was a segue from 'what gives you joy' and making my surroundings nice does that. I've been able to tolerate the crack den because it's clean and comfortable but not having put my own stuff up or flowers out has been a bit blah. There wasn't any point putting lipstick on a pig.

I've been going through photos and sentimental paperwork too and just chucking it. I just don't care about them.

Do narcissistic people look down on people who seek support etc. My partner has asked for some help (which was his first mistake) with some brick work and got back a learn to do it yourself message. They want visiting and all the good stuff but seem to have this aura about them that they aren’t support. His brother would NEVER ask for help, help is for idiots. Back when I thought they were normal I had a panic after my daughter was born and I messaged the mum for help in a do. I was literally dripping blood all over the floor and she replied about something to do with the weather and avoided coming to help. I’ve wondered if this is why both kids are extremely self sufficient physically but are really emotionally very immature. They don’t ever ask them for help, are they trained like this? For all the damage of my own parents anything I asked they came and helped with. In my head normal parents help their children all the time.

My partner has been feeling a bit down lately about it, it’s the first time that I’ve noticed him notice anything. On the group chat the mum offers things to his brother and doesn’t offer them to both. It could be done privately if it’s not a group offer. He keeps seeing them on days out that he isn’t invited. I asked him about this and he said that usually he just tagged along and he hadn’t notice if he’d been invited personally because he was happy to tag along in the past. I want to say something but I don’t want to be involved in any smear campaign as I know that will go badly. I know that behind the scenes this pulling away is being pegged onto me. I don’t want him pulling away from me because he believes it but I can’t do any about that. But I know he wants in on his family. How do I help, do I just say to him that yeah it must feel awful. I don’t speak about them at all currently.

We are not a priority or even a consideration I know this. They could visit their son and grandkid regardless of me living here, I don’t bite and I’m respectful.

Ye I understand, the hardest bit is going in isn’t it. Logically we know that we aren’t as interesting to other people as we are to ourselves in terms of reviewing what we’ve said and cringing. But that doesn’t always help.

I have the opposite, I’ve stopped enabling and emotionally supporting my mother and sharing stuff and she’s just totally dropped me! I mean i probably knew I was doing all the running and the contacting not her but I’m not doing it now and she never contacts me unless she wants something. So no attempt to hoover or anything. Which is good but seems different to most of the experiences you all relate. She’s more emotionally immature/selfish than narcissistic I think.

Probably getting what she needs from somewhere else maybe? I genuinely think some of them simply don’t care at all. I don’t think they all devalue and smear and hoover, perhaps too lazy or can turn around simply get it somewhere else. They must know they are awful horrible people pushing their luck surely??!

Perhaps. It rankles though as if I’d realised earlier how enmeshed/parentified etc I was and had pushed back that would have been better. However the pushing back came after my dad died and she leaned on me emotionally because of her shit marriage so suppose I’m not really that much use to her. Hmmm. It’s a bit odd when you realise that neither of your parents seems to really like you and you’ve not done anything and been very low maintenance throughout your life.

I can imagine it feels really shit. I felt shit after realising I was used in my marriage and made myself sick forever for absolutely nothing. It’s given me a distrust in people because how do you know if someone is using you or not. How do you make sure you give to the right people.

I’ve wondered if this is why both kids are extremely self sufficient physically but are really emotionally very immature. They don’t ever ask them for help, are they trained like this?

Effectively, yes.

When someone becomes annoyed, irritated, angry or expresses some other type of displeasure at your request for help - or even if they "just" become upset, stressed out, overwhelmed or appear to become unwell etc - you learn not to ask for help because you don't want to experience the impact of their negative emotions.

This is doubly so when you've been made responsible for your parent's happiness/emotional state. It's subconscious. You wouldn't word it like that to yourself, at least not until many years later in adulthood when you've the benefit of hindsight.

It's just, life is unpleasant when they're unhappy in some way, so you learn to never make them unhappy. If you needing something makes them unhappy, you learn never to voice your needs and to outwardly appear "fine" at all times, no matter what. Even if you're upset, unwell or physically injured.

Your DH eyes may be starting to open the merest chink happyfarm.

Torro it's so weird. In-between the hoovering I'm also dropped totally. It goes from one to the other. And whilst the hoovering is occurring I'm still dropped from the perspective of nothing will be said to me about their lives at all, I'm literally pumped for information or ignored, unless they want to gossip about someone. There's no talk of news like holidays, moving house or achievements or life events, the sort of thing you'd normally share with friends/family. Or small talk about current events, nights out etc.

Other narc ignores me completely unless they want something, then I'll be invited over as if we haven't not spoken/been out of contact for several years. As soon as they've got what they want the ignoring starts again, even whilst I'm still there!

But I'd say no hoovering is a good thing! If you're getting left alone, enjoy it. Although it could just be they have no need of you just yet and that the hoovering will start up once they do.

@SamAndAnnie I can’t say what the consequences of expressing needs was to my partner and bro but if it’s like me when I expressed some in the partners parents presence they were ignored, belittled, invalidated and laughed at. They must fear being different in anyway and be in complete denial. I know my partner is in denial about his hoarding. It’s like having needs is something to be laughed at. To be fair I’ve been humiliated at work today for talking about my asd and some of the difficulties I experience. What’s the point of having special measures if when you speak you laughed at for being different.

I think if you watch dogs there's some insight to be had. If you accidentally step on your dog they apologise to you and try harder to make you love them.

I was in traffic and watched a self centred woman and her brilliant dog. She was not mindful of his neck and dragging him as she was so absorbed in gossiping with her companions.

Gesticulating with her lead hand and dragging his collar up and down. The poor dog was so stressed and sad. BUT OBEDIENT. Because he had no other option.

I wanted to get out and take the dog off her and give her a battering.

happyfarm I'm sorry you were humiliated at work, that's shit. The people who humiliated you are pieces of shit.

I wonder if 'narcs' experience joy? Or do they only have negative emotions? They can be on the most beautiful beach on a luxury holiday and boiling with resentment if someone prettier or richer walks by.

@Dogaredabomb Yep I sit in a one hour meeting about anything I need to make it easier at work. I come out and instantly told by another manager to do the one thing that I said I struggle with. I explain which I shouldn’t have to in front of others why I find it difficult to be met with a looks of disgust. It’s like being at home all over again. What is the actual point in expressing any needs. Trouble is if I mask I suffer.

I wonder if covert narcs create overt ones. My partners bro is a child in an adult body. He doesn’t have friends, extremely immature and selfish man. Can’t stand to be around him as much as the mum as when together it amplifies. The mum won’t have expensive items and is outwardly very simple. The bro has no issues showing off, everything is expensive, labels and debt. All he talks about is his achievements. Very different to the mum who talks about who she’s helped, what she knows etc. But deep down both me me.

I really struggle to ask for help, and it was definitely trained into me in childhood. I could never ask for anything. And I mean anything. I remember when I was younger, being shocked by how much support and help other people got from their parents, and how kind their parents were to them. If I did need help and asked, I was always punished for it in some way. So I buried myself and tried to handle everything alone. And yes, I was very independent in some ways and emotionally immature in others. Boundaries were all over the place, rigid where they didn't need to be and non existent where they should have been firm.

It was always made clear to me that asking for help was selfish, greedy, lazy, and that my job was to give help, not ask for it. That led me down a path of really quite damaging people pleasing/codependency, because you attract a certain type of person when you've been programmed to be a servant. I got lucky with my husband, but I've had some horrendously toxic friendships that have all ended badly and have dealt with it by not having friends. It's a work in progress for me.

@CheekySnake do you think they do this because they simply don’t want to help?

Maybe. Obviously in the example you gave, your MIL didn't want to help, but wasn't brave enough to just come out and say it, because that means not just acknowledging it to you, but also acknowledging it to herself, and even the most narc of individuals are aware that helping people out in a crisis is normal and the right thing to do and that not doing it says something bad about them.

At the same time, I think it's important to understand that these people don't necessarily have a clear view of their own behaviour. They can't acknowledge to themselves what they're doing. There's a lack of self awareness.

So for example, in my father's case, I know he was helpful to people outside the home, particularly in his job. Probably not as helpful as he liked to make out, but still. There are interviews online with people he worked with saying they thought he was amazing some twenty years later. I sometimes wonder what those people would say if they knew that he went home and terrorised his children and punched his wife, if any of them had any inkling of it. I don't want to say his 'real' personality because I believe that both sides of him were real. He would 'help' when there was something in it for him, and bully when that got him what he wanted. My feeling is that he used the praise he got at work to justify what he did at home, because it allowed him to tell himself that what he did at home wasn't his fault. We made him do it. Because look, the people he works with think he's great, so it can't be him. He bullied us because he enjoyed it and liked the way it made him feel, because he felt safe letting his temper explode at home and letting it go was something he needed, perhaps because he liked the aftermath of it, when he would pressure us to forgive him, accept that his loss of temper was our fault, and promise to change our behaviour and now we're fixed and going to be a happy family forever (until next time), he enjoyed manipulating us/lying to us because it made him feel clever and he was terrified that he wasn't.

cheekysnake (At the same time, I think it's important to understand that these people don't necessarily have a clear view of their own behaviour. They can't acknowledge to themselves what they're doing. There's a lack of self awareness)

I think that's a very important point. I don't think there's some machiavellian plot they have all worked out. I think they're just operating from a knee jerk reaction of memememe like a very young toddler.

Toddlers bite you because they enjoy the sensation of biting and have no reasoning powers to connect the consequences (to begin with). Narcs just don't evolve beyond that.

I waa thinking about Ted Bundy (serial killer and presumably narcissist to the nth degree).

He said he felt no guilt because guilt was a wasted emotion. If you think of the women he killed (because he wanted to) and their families and the detectives and their families he must have destroyed 400 people.

But honestly I don't think that trying to unpick these people is worth the bother. They're just great big jerks who need walked away from and ignored.

Do you think that when relationships don’t work out they have no ideas why? So they just automatically blame the other person. They won’t reflect and adjust because those relationships really should be important to them. If you stick you stick if you don’t they don’t care if you fall off no matter who you are? When they aren’t liked do they need to find real or made up reasons why that person is to blame for this non-relationship because they can’t/won’t be able to have any responsibility for this?

Ive wondered why my MIL just never even tried. Could they just hold a grudge because you have something of theirs (their son) and it be as simple as that but long lasting. So in order to make sense of their feeling they devalue you and find excuses. Rather then realising they are behaving like small children who don’t like to share. It bemuses me that they would destroy relationships then self reflect.