December 2024 - but we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

New thread

No he accepts that I am the problem.

Yes I’ve always gone and come home feeling shit, sometimes having a little cry wondering what is so wrong with me. I’ve backed off to the point of I really don’t care anymore, there is no loss in people like this. Now I’m causing waves apparently.

🤣🤣🤣
But you’re not!

@Happyfarm so he is loyal to his mummy, what a surprise!

Sometimes love isn't enough.

I'm sorry you are trapped in this.

I thought he was humble and not picked up any narcissistic traits but I suppose it does sink in. Nothing is his fault or his families fault. He is happy to champion his brothers family above his own. It’s odd really but I suppose we all pick up unhealthy behaviours until we are willing to learn differently. I think the feeling of being better then others is quite a hard one to let go of. I get the feeling he thinks he is more superior to me and I’ve been there and got the t-shirt. I hate people who think they are superior, we are all the same, just doing our best.

My narcs never wanted to protect me or guide me away from trouble. They instigated the trouble or if they didn't, they saw it and pushed me towards it if it suited them to! So information gathering was not about this in my family.

There was a desire for them not to have to deal with the negative effects on their own life of the results of "this or that" (which may have been trouble or something positive, but if it affected them negatively they didn't want those closest to them involved with it) so the attempts at control come in there too.

The information gathering in my family is mainly for gossip with their friends and other family members, judgement and judgemental comments both behind my back and to my face, a stick to beat me with (even a compliment is said in a surprised way as if it's amazing someone shite like me could have that trait/do something like that. Things like praising the perfectly ordinary behaviour of a decent human being as if it's something special and noteworthy and rare and might never happen again from me!), and for entertainment I think as well (if you're grey rocking "boring" and don't give information it's like you're a crappy TV show they want to turn off and in their mind it's your fault they're not happy because you're the only TV channel and they're not being entertained by your antics).

No answers given are ever excepted unless it's a "warts and all" version of every thing that's happened.

Eg

Them: what are your aims for the next year?
Me: nothing I want to tell you about I'm not sure yet.
Them: ranting and raving about people who don't make plans and how useless that is for getting anywhere in life.

That's the punishment for not giving them information. The fact I'm not trying to "get anywhere" in the sense they mean is totally irrelevant to them. It doesn't enter their minds I might not want to be a clone of them and might have different values/want a different life to them.

I don’t know how to help this going forward in a way where I’m not completely ostracising myself from him.

You're not ostracising yourself happyfarm. That's something someone else does to you. Him, in this case. And since it is his behaviour that means you can't control it, so there's nothing you can do except have no boundaries and get treated like shit. You're drawing a reasonable boundary. He's punishing you with silent treatment, it's emotional abuse.

I honestly feel a bit sorry for your husband. It's not an easy situation to be in. You don't like his family, they don't like you, they won't do what you want, you won't do what they want and all he wants is the easiest route through.

When he comes on here for help with his relationship with his mother that's when I'll feel sorry for him. You're making this sound like it's equal between his mother and his wife. Happyfarm doesn't like MIL because MIL doesn't like her and treats her badly. All happyfarm wants is to be treated decently with basic respect and kindness. It's not unreasonable. Whereas his mother wants happyfarm to be ignored and othered by her whilst she's with them. Which is totally unreasonable. She's tried to find common ground and get along with his family, but MIL/SIL/GC bro aren't interested. If her husband chooses to side with his unreasonable mother against his reasonable wife, he doesn't deserve sympathy. Basic premise of marriage: your spouse comes first (except DC), especially when spouse is being reasonable and the other party isn't.

He needs to manage his boundaries with mummy

Agree binkie.
Problem is, husband doesn't have any happyfarm. Though he's fine to set plenty of unreasonable ones with you, expecting you to suck it up.

It feels abusive and dismissive and I don't like it.

That's because it is abusive and dismissive - and you shouldn't like that.

the price of no contact ripples into relationships that they cherish….

I've found that the price of having contact does too.

When you're gossiped about to them by the narc,
when they're gossiped about to you by the narc,
when there's a narc shit-stirring between you in the background,
when you can't have a conversation between you and them in the narcs presence because the narc will be very vocal with their opinions on what both of you are saying and so take over the conversation making it all about them,
when the others also have to be put on an information diet otherwise your private life will get back to the narc even though you haven't told them.

You can't have a normal relationship with the others whether you remain in contact with the narc or not.

I feel sorry for him because he's in this situation and either can't or won't see the problem and therefore can't make positive steps to do something about it. I feel sorry for people unable to get themselves out of it.

I'm on the fence about always putting the spouse first. I don't think we always should, tbh, because it's something a narc spouse demands whilst dangling the carrot that all will be well in the relationship if you just do what they want enough.

Thanks @SamAndAnnie that did explain it better than I did. The thing is mum/dad/bro/SIL/my partner were the group up until he was 31. They were all perfectly happy in this situation. I was welcomed but under the premise that I would join the status quo and join the brother loving. Only trouble being I have my own ideas and identity and hobbies and I have done many things in my life that I’m proud of and can talk about. I’ve no interest whatsoever in his brother in this way. I am and I will also be the problem, even to my partner. It’s destroyed the relationship with his brother and SIL who think I’m some kind of nasty crazy person. You right in that you can’t have an autonomous relationship with any of them. They come as group. They decide who his partner is based on them fitting into the correct role. It’s not nice being projected as someone horrible because I’m actually a nice person. (With struggles like many). I’m not invited to events because his extended family like me and I love a chat. I’m not allowed to be liked.

I think that narcs like this are scared of us because we are likable. We have lots to talk about because our lives are bigger. The amount of little comments they’ve made trying to put me down. In a way it’s making me stronger because I actually like myself. There is power in liking yourself. I think that’s what a previous poster has said. No one can get to you when your self esteem is built from within. Narcs power is stronger on those who believe them, with weaker self esteem.

I read a thing a while ago that said underneath the narcissism is pathologically low self esteem and utter terror that someday someone will see them for who they really are. So they have to use other people to boost their self esteem in order to be able to function on a day to basis, and it's also why why often have a breakdown after this is taken away (I'm convinced this is what happened to my father).

What's key here for us, because we've got previous narc damage, is finding a way to deal with them which is healthy for us. Part of the reason it's difficult is because we've been burned before and we can see them for that they are. And they can't have that. It's dangerous for them.

What scares me the most is that they are actively trying to recruit my children into this group. I hope that I am able to have some impact on this. I send my children to as many clubs and groups as I can in the hope that they can discover themselves outside of this. I think that is why I don’t fall for it. I’ve lived outside of this bubble, these people have been kept in it. When I think back at all my mistakes with negativity I now try and give myself credit because at least I’ve tried and I’ve learned so many lessons. What do you lean never going anywhere or never taking any risks for fear of being rejected. My new saying is now “let them”. My mistakes have grown me beyond this.

Sorry one child is being recruited!

@Happyfarm when I said earlier that I felt sorry for your DH, it's because I know what it's like to be trapped in the narc circle, not yet fully aware of what going on, and how you doing things you are ashamed of later and say things you aren't sure are true because the pressure to behave 'correctly' is so overwhelming. I look back at myself when I was younger and could die of shame over things I did and said that I know now were wrong or weird. I just didn't know. I knew instinctively that things were wrong, but I didn't understand exactly how, and it took me a very long time to see my mother clearly and to begin to understand why contact with her causes me such terrible anxiety when she was the 'good' parent.

I've tried to model better for my own kids, I've put a lot of emphasis on what is and isn't important. It's hard.

Yeah. I’ve no idea how he feels but I think it’s obvious he is extremely nervous about this situation. I’m not behaving anymore that’s for sure he can do what he has to do. MIL is after my little daughter. She has done nothing for 2 years but now she can talk and communicate she is over her like a rash. The OTT voice, she has even had a canvas printed of her and is in her lounge on full display. Just her, not the other. She keeps saying “oh she’s just like us”….no she fucking isnt!!!

@Happyfarm I do feel sorry for your husband. He is happy with his family and established group, you were also happy to go along with it, you both chose to have a child together, I expect he was very happy and thought he had the perfect partner and a good marriage. Now you are saying no to it unless you get your way by being accepted, welcomed and greeted, treated the same as dil. You are to a degree behaving exactly the same way as his family. He wants to continue in the same way he always has. I think instead of going round in circles every day it's time to have a grown up conversation with him and be honest, tell him it isn't working for you and it's time to either find a way or separate. You are no longer compatible. He is not at fault or you but you have changed, he hasn't.

l'm not invited to events because his extended family like me and I love a chat. I’m not allowed to be liked.
We have lots to talk about because our lives are bigger.
That is really snipey, do they maybe think you try to dominate the conversation?

The upshot is your husband will choose his family over you, he will not change. You have only been together 5 years? Cut your loses.

No sorry I don’t try and dominate the conversation at all. I move the conversation from his brother when I talk one on one (which is all they talk about). I talk about what we’ve been up to, the kids, hobbies and holidays we go on with the groups we belong and what the other party has been doing. I think that’s quite standard, isn’t it?

@Happyfarm I think the reality is, you’re right, they don’t accept you, because you rock their boat, you won’t play their game!!
But the thing is…. They won’t change, they simply won’t, it’s their way or not. You either play, or you don’t. They are a big group, they will band together en mass, you won’t win. It’s all your husband knows, he either can’t or won’t see it

I know. He’s going to start to despise me because he wants in and I don’t. I can’t and I’ve tried to sit with them feeling completely invisible, literally not being looked at. I am unsure if a different attitude of going along and not giving a shit not expecting anything would work for the sake of keeping the relationship. We have our own friends. The good thing about him is that he has friends outside of them and belongs to a hobby group that are fab. He isn’t dependent on them.

Are you saying they literally only talk about the brother or it just feels to you that's all they talk about?

No it is all they talk about. It’s like a running commentary of when he went to work, what times, how amazing at his job he is, how he fixed this and that. When we see them they fill my partner in on everything his brother has done. But the brother sends hundreds of msgs back and forward everyday. I had to mute the group chat then deleted it because it was excessive (in my eyes). Then he calls for an hour each evening. Maybe that’s normal, I just find it too much. I don’t want to know what he’s up to every minute of the day.

He can have whatever relationship he wants. My issue is that I don’t want to talk about the brother with his parents. I want to talk about the things we have done but they aren’t interested. They never ask.

You don't want to talk about the brother and they don't want to talk about you. Stop banging your head against a brick wall.

One issue that keeps coming up over and over again is how angry you are about the fact that they treat your children differently. But they ARE different and getting angry about it isn't healthy for anyone, and I've got to be honest, maybe you need to consider if perhaps some of your expectations are unreasonable.

I have a SIL who has step children. My MIL doesn't have photos of them up in her house. She does have photos of her bio grandchildren, including SIL's children. This is normal. The step grand kids already have grandparents. MIL has a different relationship with them. She is not their grandparent. I've got step siblings. Their grandmother didn't have photos of me in the house. I wasn't included in family events. They are separate relationships. Our parents' decision to marry didn't make me part of my stepfather's extended family.

I suspect that if a poster said that her OH was refusing to do things with her family unless his children from a previous marriage were included, people would say this was unreasonable. If your ex got married again, would you expect his new wife's parents to take your child on holiday, or have expensive portrait photos of her around the house, or would that be overstepping the boundaries of their relationship a bit?

This has been going on since the very beginning, it’s not about the kids. One of the first comments from them was about how I should be more like the DIL, how my parter isn’t going to be used to
someone like me because he came from a good upbringing. They’ve always deemed me lower, they have me pegged.

@binkie163 its taken time, I’m not interested in a relationship anymore with them. It’s whether it can be saved with my partner really. Can I just surface level my way through ignoring the put downs. I probably could having emotional detaching.

The amount of little comments they’ve made trying to put me down. In a way it’s making me stronger because I actually like myself. There is power in liking yourself. I think that’s what a previous poster has said. No one can get to you when your self esteem is built from within. Narcs power is stronger on those who believe them, with weaker self esteem.

From my relationship with my ex I'd say putting up with it isn't possible. I used to tell myself the above, that if I don't believe what he's saying is true then it can't affect me. I was wrong. It wasn't making me stronger. Although it was teaching me how to put up with it, I now believe that should only really be a short term measure. As time went on, with the constant nature of being put down it was making me weaker without me realising. It was causing me to shut down and switch off, emotionally disengaging from myself in order to tolerate it. By the time that relationship was over I ended up a shell of who I used to be.

On the surface of it you only see MIL occasionally, but it's actually daily you're being exposed to the toxicity via the chat group, the nightly phone call and I'm guessing your husband's chat. Or does he never mention his family to you, even though he's chatting with them all day and night and is fully enmeshed in the dynamics? I know what it's like to live with that daily low level of toxicity continually dripping in your ear.

I know what it's like with my FOO to know the visit is coming up, to know how it's going to go, how it's going to make me feel, the stress that causes not just in the moment but in the anticipation and aftermath, the anger felt at this happening over and over again and feeling powerless to stop it. One visit ruining several weeks or months each time due to the emotional impact of it.

You do come across as a bit unhinged but I think it's as a result of this situation you're in that's causing you so much harm. There's only so much shit a person can take before they start to unravel.

Oh dear. I think the inner workings of my brain probably do sound a little unhinged. I agree it is the brain trying to process this and to find a way forwards. With my narc ex no contact was the only option, apart from daughter going that’s all I know about. On the outside I’m fine, talk and laugh with friends, go out etc. we’ve been booking holidays and camping and things to go and see. It doesn’t affect the running of my life. Just sat at the moment with a poorly child thinking. I actually feel a lot better in myself. It has helped a great deal knowing to wean myself off anyone’s approval and to look at my own life and all the great things I’ve done and how worthy I am all by myself. I was going to rabbit hole of oh no if they don’t like me then they must be right.

It is not my partner who talks excessively, it’s the brother. My partner will text now and again but no way near the others amount. He isn’t that enmeshed. When we meet it’s just we hear all of it from his parents. What my partner struggles with is independent thought and decisions. He wants to run it past his parents because I think he is afraid of getting it wrong. He is better. He no longer asks them where we go on holidays or if we even should. The mum doesn’t like this. Whereas the other brother goes strictly where the mum suggests and when for example.