December 2024 - but we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

New thread

My partners brothers gf hurt me very much by saying that my bad parenting has caused this and that if she was loved like she loves her children then she wouldn’t be like this. The father also expressed that I should be a better parent like her and I chose to stay in an abusive relationship. I think that’s what I’ve been trying to prove in a stupid way, that I am good enough. Bloody toxic awful shit that I will keep away from.

It's been my 3rd Christmas of going NC with my family of origin (FOO). I don't regret my decision at all. It is a great release to do things at this time of year on my terms!

Before I felt that I always had to compromise and that there would always be something that I did or didn't do that I would be critised on. However, on the other hand, I do feel a sense of sadness and loss that I don't have the large extended family get-togethers that other friends of mine have. My dc (over 18's) all understand why we don't see my FOO, but they also feel that loss and disappointment not having an extended family. I am also sad that my parents and sister have never made an effort to make amends - merely to try and brush things under the carpet and continue they way they are. I always think if ever my dc have been upset with my behaviours, I always listen and take on board what they say. We have a conversation and try and understand each other points of view and then change if required. If my DC went NC with me, I would move heaven and earth to rectify things. I often wonder why my FOO can't do that. It makes me feel rejected and not worthy and not good enough. Does anyone else NC feel this way? How do you console yourself?

@MyFragility oh yes. Tbh I'm dwelling on this quite a lot over the holiday period. Their denial is so strong that it wouldn't occur to them that there is any work they need to do. Most of them should see therapists for an extended period of time to be able to reflect their behaviour and change. I don't know why this doesn't occur to them, whilst still pretending to themselves that they have done all they could.

I guess it's easier to uphold the narrative that you are the issue and are a bit weird and that one day you might come to your senses again.

They have a skewed idea what making amends means. Mine think it means trying to keep in contact, sending me parcels and just forget about our issues etc even though I said I don't want calls, texts and gave nothing left to say. It's really primitive.

@MyFragility there is nothing that would console me. I do remind myself of the peace and as you say doing drama free holidays. But that's just a reminder of why I made this decision and doesn't make me feel better in the moment. I do cry over it still.

@MyFragility yes I feel very sad and miss being included in family and friend gatherings. Nc wasn't my choice my dsis went no contact with me when I found out she had been taking money out of dm account she's cut contact me so she could continue to help herself to it without me questioning her we had all been very close until then

I feel hurt dm and family friends are obviously believing whatever lies she's telling them and I don't have contact with them anymore either

I am hurt and sad by the whole situation and times like Christmas birthdays etc are difficult

Thought I'd lunge in here. I do read this thread very regularly, but don't join in much, as I spend far too much time reading anyway. All part of that darn over analysing and trying to manage the FOO dysfunction stuff you've all been talking about. Keeps me grounded.
No matter how much I read , new subjects and ideas continue to pop up. All relevant

I had my 'epiphany moment' almost 9 years to the day ago. Previously I 'just thought that the abnormal was normal. I think we've all been there. Sad laugh.

91 year old covert abusive narc mother, dead enabler dad, loads of dysfunctional in a large family. Some are trying to work things out, others ignore it, a couple have ADHD ( diagnosed and self diagnosed). I was the Invisible, most abused and ignored child. Which I'm now glad of. Less enmeshed, now surprisingly the one who can bridge the siblings . But I'm never complacent. There are no miracles.

I agree with everything said recently. I've long thought that there are commonalities across 'diagnoses' )( much opposition to that thought) . Diagnoses are useful - in as much as they make you think about how to proceed, but not as a convenient go-to excuse. The number of times I hear ' I can't help it, it's my ....'. Whilst not taking on board any treatment options ( I realise there are no magic bullets btw)

If my mother weren't so old, and to continue to push people away with her behaviour ( which she realises but refuses to change, I'd go NC. Its like watching a train crash in slow motion. Now shes trying to pull in the more extended family, including the ones she's ignored for most of their lives, usually with gifts of money. Eg my son and his family. Would i tell him that , even though she's never visited/ telephoned/been interested in, them that shes 'always thinking about them' ? Nope.
I pity her.

Funnily enough, I no longer feel abandonment anxiety. Im now toxically independent, as they say.
DH is ND, and does. His elderly mother is awful, and his father died a couple of years ago. I think it's too difficult for him to explore . He's not into self analysis, but thats a different story. After years of he and his dad failing to protect me from the family dynamics, I now stay clear. When I come into contact, I'm chatty, light and sociable. I don't take the prevailing ' in law versus faaaamily' crap to heart. @ HappyFarm, I recognise you in this. I now call myself an Outlaw. Not a victim, but an outsider and proud of it. Anarchy in the UK! ( ps they respect me a lot more now I'm less puppy dog enthusiastic. Strange)

Oh God, it's an essay.
Thank you to anyone who ploughs your way through.
Solidarity to all, and a better new year !

@KeeponReading it is extremely difficult to navigate when you don’t have the tools and you have a very negative self critical voice that comes with whatever label it is. You are right it makes no difference. I think it’s just taken me a long time to understand what’s happening from both sides. I hoped for something and I have to deal with these feelings of grief. I have to also accept that others will view me however they do but this does not mean I am what they say I am or take it as an invitation to prove them wrong. My self worth needs to separate. It’s hard but I see it. I am still a child in this sense.

Do you think this is linked to child hood when we see the world via the eyes of our caregivers? So if they are negative we carry this on. If we praise our children they will view the world through the eyes of a mother who thinks they can do anything?

Im after some opinions on NC and 'fair play' around birthday/Christmas gifts. Obviously won't be buying any if I'm NC and know I don't have to accept any from them.

But do I tell them I'm NC (just once, ignoring their reaction) or do I let them find out after they've bought something, tried to contact me about arranging to bring it and realise they can't?

They won't be able to post it because I'm moving at the end of February and won't be giving them my address. I don't see how I can give them the address and make it clear I don't want contact. It would be a contradiction and might understandably be confusing for them.

So do I tell them I won't be able to receive their gifts in future or do I say nothing, let them spend pointlessly and let them find out we're NC when they just can't get hold of me?

It's complicated by wanting, if possible, to keep touch with non-toxic family members. These people will probably think I'm a shit if I let people waste their money buying gifts pointlessly.

Maybe the solution is I hold off on NC until the next birthday approaches, then say well in advance that we don't want gifts or money or anything, which obviously won't go down well with the toxic ones, but if I'm going NC that part won't matter. Then at least they've been told, so if they waste their money it's not my fault. What do you think?

I think NC is about accepting responsibility for yourself and letting go of responsibility for other people.

If they choose to buy presents, that's on them. Their financial decisions are not yours to control.

If they think badly of you, that's on them. Their feelings are not yours to control.

All of your plans involve taking responsibility for what other people do/feel. None of this is your problem. NC isn't a divorce, it's not something both parties have to thrash out an agreement over. It's just you making that decision for yourself and withdrawing, and letting them get on with it at their end.

@SamAndAnnie which scenario can you live with best?

Personally I would tell them, as it makes it clear for you and you can then ignore any attempts of contact without wondering 'maybe I should tell them this or that' (or at least this voice would be less loud). It's then not your problem if they continue to spend.

I know some people have ghosted, but that didn't work for my conscience. It still did not go the way I thought it would - the crap they come up with to creep their way back into your life is insane.

I thought for about 2 months that they have respected my decision before they started their crap. They probably thought I wasn't serious.

Your's will start some crap too.

To an extent yes. That negative inner voice isn't yours, it's your abuser's. Wounded children internalise it and believe what it says as a fundamental truth [that isn't actually true in reality]. The negative voice becomes a part of them. I think the confident child is different and grows up with their own inner voice because they're allowed to be a fully formed separate and independent human, not a wounded damaged toxically trauma-bonded one. I think the wounded child hears the toxic voice as if it were their own, they don't have the independent thoughts that they should have. The confident child who becomes the confident adult might take comfort from knowing what [insert positive role model relative] would say, eg if they're doubting themselves, but they know that isn't their voice, it's their relatives advice echoing through to them from the past. They've got their own inner voice because they were allowed to develop one as a child.

No re your second paragraph. A response is what they want from you so do not give them one. Maintain radio silence. Any gifts that are sent should not be acknowledged but otherwise disposed off via a charity shop.

Ignore any and all flying monkeys that are sent in. These people have their own agenda and not your interests at heart .

@SamAndAnnie I suppose it’s suppression and enmeshing at the same time. I guess it’s why identity becomes a struggle and co-dependancy forms. It scary really. Sometimes I think if I think to deep and hard I will explode. Personally I’ve just assumed the critical voice as I’ve never fit in. But it was never my job to fit into my family but their job to have fit themselves around me as a child. It’s mind blowing the mess it does to a person.

Can I just make a comment regarding accepting gifts?
My Mil gave my eldest a cheque as a significant birthday present, my DD accepted. Of course it came with strings attached etc….. She now regrets accepting and has slowly reduced contact

My next Dd received the same cheque for her same significant birthday present in December and is refusing to bank it. Although mil is kicking off, I honestly think it’s for the best in the long run.

Buying people off with presents is truly awful, can you just send them back???

Cheeky snake so I don't even owe them 'fair play' then. I had wondered about that. The rules of being a decent human being just don't work with dysfunctional family, it all needs tweaking to make it work. Thanks for bringing up the responsibility thing, it's a massive problem because that's what I was trained for since birth, to take responsibility for narc parents (and all others too, really) feelings and emotional state. So I must still have a tendency to do it then! I guess you're right and I likened it to getting a divorce in the sense that you don't need your partner's permission to get a divorce, but you can't just get a divorce without them knowing and then the first they know about it is the joint account is closed and their key doesn't fit in the lock when they arrive home.

Twatalert yes I need to take the focus off them don't I and decide which option I can best live with. That will be the option with least drama I think. Sending X and Y a message that from now on we're NC does feel like throwing a hand grenade into the centre of things. I'm not a dramatic person so I'd like to avoid that, I want to be true to myself as the priority I suppose. As well as not upset others unnecessarily, but that has to be a secondary thing.

Atilla for years I've been saying "thanks" for the gifts then dropping them straight off at charity shop if it's not something I want or need. It was the easiest and least offensive option and it works well. Yes I think you're right I won't make a NC announcement, it feels dramatic.

Little miss I don't do the drama of refusing gifts, I accept saying "thanks" and then dispose of if I don't want it. So a cheque would go in the bin. Some goes to charity shop or is sold. If I like the thing and want to keep it and won't feel obligated by it, then I do keep it, but only so long as looking at it won't upset me.

@SamAndAnnie being responsible for other people's feelings, particularly my parents, is something I've really struggled with. One of my fathers favourite phrases was 'you don't want to upset me do you?' 🙄 but I've also realised recently that my mother made me responsible for her feelings, too. I don't think she even knew she was doing it. I've read a few things recently that have made me think about it differently, that being constantly terrified about upsetting people and so hurting yourself to spare them any upset isn't ok, and is actually quite arrogant - you are saying a. That you've got the power to cause those feelings and b. That the other person can't cope with them and so needs you to protect them. TBF I think my mother encouraged b. It's a difficult pattern to escape from.

It's not a healthy way to have a relationship with someone though, where they constantly need protecting from their own emotions, and you have the job of providing that protection. So you've got to check yourself to see whether or not you are actively seeking to be the protective person (which is co-dependency) in order to avoid falling into the same type of relationship again. It's different to offering support.

To sum up: sometimes we need to check our own behaviour, because being in relationships with toxic people can lead to us forming unhealthy behaviours ourselves, sometimes without realising it. On the surface these behaviours may seem reasonable, kind even, but they're not.

I feel the same way about most of the things in your post! I'm in the process of going NC with my parents and completely get what you mean about having the freedom to spend Christmas doing what you want rather than trying to keep them happy.
It's been a month so far for me and my parents haven't even tried to make amends or say sorry for what they did that finally made me say enough is enough!! They just don't think they've done anything wrong and are waiting for me to come back grovelling so they sweep it under the carpet and pretend everything is ok again.
I've been talking to DH and if our DC went NC we would make sure they knew we were here for them if they needed to talk and would apologise and do all we could to make things better. I've always felt my parents are only nice to me when I do what they want me to do and this last month has proven it. I've always been there, done so much with them and for them, DB is about 2-3 times a year, rarely buys presents, is never there for big events or birthdays but he can do no wrong in their eyes. I try and explain how I'm feeling and they can't even listen. ,

Littlrmissprosseco

Seniding gifts back is a response and a response is precisely what these people want, it’s a reward to them. The best thing is not to acknowledge any gift sent and to dispose of these via a charity shop. Radio silence must be maintained.

@AttilaTheMeerkat fair enough. But I know that if we accept anything from mil, she goes on an on about how wonderful her gift was and how should be grateful, tells all her friends etc….
To be fair she usually can’t be bothered to gift anything

I don’t think it’s coming from a place of arrogance but of misplaced survival. Someone said something to me the other day. A friend said why do you take notice of people who don’t care about you. I thought long and hard about this. I realised I wanted them to care about me and I thought that I could have some control over this. I don’t. If they don’t like me then nothing happens it’s not a matter of life or death. It’s a horrible unhealthy behaviour I’ve picked up. Like you were saying about have to check our own behaviour but doing so with compassion. I do think that as children we think we have control over our parents moods or they train us to behave in ways that control them. It was always up to them to heal themselves.

Cheeky snake it was a bit different for me as a child. It wasn't about not upsetting them it was about being the listening ear and making everything ok again when someone else upset them.

The thing now with NC is just about me trying to do the right thing which I think is not to cause unnecessary upset as you go through life.

My specific motivation here is myself, to not get cut off by the family I do like, if I can help it. If I say literally nothing to anyone, all they'll have is the ones I've gone NC with version of events and then those nice ones might think IABU and cut me off. I'm trying to do damage limitation on the outcome of all this, otherwise it would be a simple decision to block and ignore the narcs.

I guess that would say something about the others as people though, if they judged me without bothering to even ask me why I've done it, so maybe I shouldn't give it any more thought.

Fragility I won't want mine to move heaven and earth to rectify things. It isn't possible and would be an annoyance if they tried. To rectify things they'd have to change their personality and that isn't going to happen because they think they're fine.

I'd have the same approach if someone cut me off. I don't consider I've done anything wrong so I've nothing to make amends for. For things in that situation to go back to being fine it would require the one who cut me off to come to me with an apology for having done so. There's no way I'd be chasing after them trying to find out what's wrong.

If one of the family members I like cuts me off, I'll accept their decision even though I'll feel a bit sad for a while. At the end of the day though, if they cut me off it's because they're judging me and if they can judge me without knowing all the facts then they're not my kind of person anyway, so what would I have lost? Nothing, basically.

Happy new year everyone!

Taking a deep breath and posting again after absolutely ages, with fervent hopes that everyone is doing as well as possible.

This is a very difficult and sad time of year and I'm being incredibly bad and slow at corresponding with friends, social media, etc, BUT... I did it. Six months ago I moved out of my parents' house. I'm NC with my mother - positive - in text contact with my dad, messaging with my aunt - stressful - and NC with the rest of my family - mostly incredibly hard. I had a very serious accident in July and did not move back in with my parents, although I haven't even quite finished unpacking and most of last year was a write-off. The last time I had alcohol was October 24, the last time I was discharged after a hospital admission (related to the accident) early November, I weaned off morphine, I'm volunteering, I'm looking at doing my professional exams, I'm even doing a hobby here and there.

For those who remember, I'm not ready to think about Velvet or talk about her unfortunately, and I am still struggling hugely with a lot of things. But I made it, for now, and wanted to let you all know.

Best 2025 wishes to all you brave people.