December 2024 - but we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

New thread

My father used to regularly threaten me with abandonment when I was very young. He would put me in the car and drive me to a particular place and threaten to leave me there. I can still remember the fear. Don't want to go into specifics in case it's outing. But I look at my own kids and can't fathom how you could do that.

All I can think is that he enjoyed it.

@CheekySnake that's awful. I don't remember my parents threatening to abandon me physically.

Keep in mind everyone that this fear can come from silent treatment, or simply your main caregiver not attuning to your needs over and over again, which my mother was an absolute pro in. Even things like sending you away when you are upset, instead of consoling you are an issue. Any form of withdrawing love or conditional love (don't we all know what this is like) can cause that. Because as children we depend on our parents and aren't able to survive on our own, even emotionally.

That's just unlocked a memory for me.

I was told constantly I would be sent to live at a school for naughty children. It was even pointed out to me as we drove by.

This was throughout primary school years. I would point out I have never done anything wrong, never had a detention and to this day don't have a criminal record.

This is the replacement for it.

https://www.durham.gov.uk/aycliffesecurecentre

See this is why I think psychiatry is a crock of shit: I was the literal opposite of you as a child, from your description. Spoke, read and write freakishly early (was using apostrophes at the age of 3 without being taught by anyone - just a fucking weirdo geek of a kid lol) (killed all those precocious brain cells in my drug-addled 20s, mind... dammit!). So how could both you and I have the same disorder?! Do you know what I mean?!

But anyway, this is a soapbox that nobody invited me to mount, isn't it?! Sorry!

I totally agree with @Twatalert (brilliant name, ha!): there is SO much overlap between disorders/symptoms/etc. I've been diagnosed with so many things. The first time I was taken to a psychologist, I was 4 years old, ffs. Really, just my parents farming out parenting to professionals. But it does a number on you, to be told there's Something Wrong With You as a kid. I'm 40 now and still constantly doing the thing that @Twatalert described: over-analysing, self-diagnosing, intellectualising... It seems really common among people who are looking for answers to their family of origin's scapegoating. Especially as diagnoses often bring community, in the internet age - you can find "your people" through ADHD forums or whatever your diagnosis is.

C-PTSD sounds about right, really.

Gah. Bullshit, innit?!

I hope you're ok!

Off-topic, but does anyone know why this thread is called "But we took you to stately homes!" That absolutely cracks me up, is it a joke?! I can imagine several members of my family saying it seriously, though - which is what's making me laugh 😂

@LoveIsAVerb the thread was started by someone yonks ago who spoke to her parents about their 'failings'. They said something along the lines 'but we always took you to stately homes'. Like it's some badge for good parenting and meeting the child's needs.

Jesus Christ 😂 Don't mean to laugh, but if you didn't laugh you'd cry, wouldn't you?!

I am really interested in what you said about intellectualising as a trauma response btw. Can you say any more about that / do you have any links to where I could read up about it? You sound very wise!! Gimme some wisdom! 😅 Thank you!

My 8 year old is under diagnosis for ADHD and the school are 100% certain she is. She doesn’t I don’t believe or have had enough trauma to have developed BPD. She suffers rejection sensitivity. It’s a deep primitive feeling to feel part of the group and for those who have little skin it cuts deep, right to the core of what humans are literally here for. I don’t know I don’t have enough experience to label anyone really.

@Happyfarm I don't believe 8yo children get diagnosed with personality disorders. I wouldn't think it's appropriate to worry about this at that age.

What people are getting at is that one doesn't need to have ADHD, BPD or some other big label to have something what you call rejection sensitivity.

I hate to be invalidating, but you have shared a lot of history of you/your children and I struggle to see how a child would come out of it unscathed. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make you feel horrible. I also find it concerning to say 'not enough trauma'. You don't know what would be the tipping point for any human being to develop coping mechanisms that aren't healthy. In fact, I would claim we all have the unhealthy coping mechanisms.

You can of course put those on the ADHD label and there is some value in knowing what is 'wrong' with someone, but how is that going to help her. She has some needs that are more difficult to meet and she's reacting a certain way because of it.

@Twatalert it doesn’t help her at all. I and the school want the diagnosis in order for her to get the extra support in school and at home for us also as unfortunately they can’t do much with her behaviour without a label. I’ve been asking since she was 3 but they leave it until no longer ignorable. I couldn’t care less what she does or doesn’t have, myself also as it changes very little. I know what I need deep down and what I don’t need it’s just having the confidence to listen and stop the fear if I stand up I’ll be alone. Deep down I’m terrified of being alone. I understand that’s why families stick together and some become enmeshed, that way they never need to feel alone. I have to be more brave and not fear not being not liked. It is the one thing I wish to teach my children and I really do show this outwardly. Both my kids are very outgoing, speak to anyone, sociable on stage etc. I want this for them so that they don’t collapse the moment someone doesn’t agree.

Happy new year all

I've never been one for New Year I much prefer Christmas so was a quiet one just me and dh as ds was out and dd recently moved in with her boyfriend

Lots of posts on social media from friends that 24 was a tough year and can't wait to see the back of it looking forward to 25 i feel unfortunately my situation is just rolling into the new year now the opg are finally starting to investigate my concerns regarding dsis so it will probably be another tough year or at least the start of it

Not heard from dm not even a thank you for the flowers I had delivered for her whether she got them I don't know as they were delivered to her doorstep a few days before Christmas but dsis may have got to them first as she will have seen it on the ring doorbell. dh cousin who is also my dsis best friend messaged him last night wishing him happy new year we haven't heard anything from her in months suggesting they have a catch up which i guess is nice but unfortunately this whole situation has made me suspicious of people and made me wonder if opg have been in touch with dsis asking for bank statements or receipts so I suggested they meet and doesn’t talk about anything that's going on or dsis

I'm sorry but @Twatalert is bang on the money here (again!).

8yos do not get diagnosed with personality disorders, no. It's not something that's diagnosed until adulthood. But you shouldn't be pathologising your child, and nor should anyone else. As I said, I was first taken to a shrink at the age of 4 for behaviours that were seen as consistent with various diagnosable MH disorders - but, in fact, were a perfectly reasonable response to the shit going on at home. And we're not talking "major" shit here, either. Just things like parental arguments and having parents who weren't emotionally attuned to me. The kind of things that you would probably count as "not being traumatic enough" to develop problems, tbh! But I was a sensitive kid, I guess. And there is no "threshold" for trauma. The same event will affect two different people in totally different ways. Trauma isn't about the "what happened"; it's about the "how did it affect you, and how were you helped?" In my case, Dad was fairly absent, and Mum didn't know how to deal with me, so she took me to psych professionals and got me diagnosed with stuff.

I understand that you are struggling, and I'm sorry. But I would think very, very carefully before getting your child diagnosed with anything (including ADHD). I know it's all very "in vogue" at the moment, but take it from an adult who was diagnosed at a young age. It makes kids think there's something wrong with them, when there isn't; they're reacting to a difficult home situation. Whether you deem the things happening at home "traumatic" or not is by the by, tbh.

I think you need to get some help, though. Because it sounds like a shit situation and you're struggling. And that is affecting your child. Yes, you do need to do the things you identified in your post: stop caring about being liked, stop being terrified of being alone, all that stuff. But it's so much easier said than done. Which is why I would recommend you seek help for yourself, and not pathologise your kid.

I say this with love. And also, a lot of experience. You don't want your kid to look back when she's an adult and be like "fucking hell, mum, thanks for making me think I was mental when actually, you should've taken me out of that situation." I love my mum, but God, she made some bad decisions.

@LoveIsAVerb I don’t in anyway think she has any kind of pathological disorder. I think I wrote it wrong, I was trying to say that kids don’t get diagnosed with them. The schools head and her teacher have expressed the referral. She shouts out in class, won’t wait her turn, jiggles around on her chair, can’t sit on the carpet, is unable to recognise emotions, can’t remember spellings and mixes up letters and struggles with reading. Mixed in with any trauma also. She is on the other hand brilliant at singing and writing songs and can write extremely emotional songs way beyond her peers. Just to reiterate I don’t think she has any disorder.

I should have added we have a very close bond. I am her safe space and I’m not emotionally neglectful to my daughter. I’m sorry if that triggers memories for you. She comes and tells me everything, she is very important to me. I note the help to deal with stuff. I’ll be off now as mindful to not dwell.

Sorry if anything that I said came across wrong, too. I know it's a super-sensitive subject. I didn't mean to imply that you've been emotionally neglectful at all. It's great that you have a close bond with her!

When I said about being careful before getting a child diagnosed with a "disorder", I meant including ADHD, which is a disorder (attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder). And when I said "pathologising", I meant it in the literal sense, i.e. treat a behaviour as psychologically abnormal (which is what diagnosing someone does) when it might be a normal reaction to an abnormal/stressful situation. It wasn't meant as a judgement on you.

I do get that a diagnosis is often the only way to unlock material benefits, like support at school. That's a shame, imo, but yeah.

You haven't triggered any bad memories for me, don't worry! I was just sharing my experiences in case it was helpful/insightful at all, as an adult who was once a child who teachers and a much-loved mother decided should be diagnosed with various psych disorders.

@Happyfarm I have no doubt you are there for your kids the way you have talked about them. I get that sometimes diagnosis is important because that's just our system and it is needed to get extra support.

But you also talked about separating from her dad, your bat shit inlaws etc. I just think that with the complexity of life it's impossible to know whether or not circumstances have affected someone 'enough' to show certain reactions. And we have blind spots, forget things over time or memories are faint. It's not a reflection on you as a mother and your parenting.

Yes it’s for the support. The head teacher has said already it’s irrelevant what the label is but it’s needed in order to get us all some extra support. GP’s do not care. She has been to some art groups that specialise. What she struggles with is social situations. She’ll go to say her cubs and people don’t really take to her. She won’t do when they say for example she needs to budge up to allow someone to sit. She will absolutely refuse to do tasks that she has been asked to do. She then doesn’t understand why people don’t take to her. So then she doesn’t want to go anywhere because she says everyone else has a problem. If you say to her well that little girl asked you to budge up a little and you stared her down and refused so now the little girl is a bit unsure of you. She doesn’t get to allow others to be first in a line, she has to be first each and every time. If you explain that others have feelings and they also want a then she has no idea why they have feelings.

What kind of support will they be able to offer, do you know? I hope it's helpful! Good that the head teacher doesn't see the whole labelling thing as too important, just a key that unlocks extra help.

From what you've said, she doesn't sound sensitive to rejection at all - almost the opposite, tbh (not noticing when kids are a bit funny with her, being fairly oblivious to their emotions, etc). Do you think you might be projecting your own fears of rejection onto her a little bit?

I’m unsure if I’m using the terms and words really. What I’m trying to say is maybe a fear of your own feelings, is that shame maybe? For example she will behave like this, oblivious to the feelings of others and then react with a massive reaction. If she does a mistake on work she will shout and screw it up and throw it. If she feels left out she will cry and hide away, if she is embarrassed she will attack. We have all been teaching her to express her feelings and how to regulate, but she shuts down and it takes hours. She throws bricks at windows, hits people, says really awful things to those that make her feel something. She is extremely sensitive to feeling left out and if she senses this she shuts down. But because she often reads things differently and doesn’t behave like most in her class she is often left out which makes it worse and worse. Then you get I don’t want friends, I hate them all etc and she then says horrible things to them. In the past she has hurt our pet gerbils, pulled them around by the tails and has no real understanding that they have feelings.

Support wise we are still waiting to find it all out.

Happy farm

Your DDs best form of support will be a legally binding document called an EHCP which is an education health and care plan. Anything short of that will be limited, easily removed and importantly not legally binding. Has anyone mentioned this to you ?

Are the school planning on getting an Educational psychologist in to assess your daughter?. This is needed to assess her needs properly. Is she currently seeing a developmental paediatrician?.

Have a look at IPSEAs website and it will explain more. The better you are yourself clued up about this the better off both you and she will be. You can directly apply to the LEA for this and you do not need a diagnosis. You are her best advocate here and it will be down to you ultimately to fight her corner for her.

I’m telling you this now because forewarned is forewarned. I’ve been through the SN educational jungle and come through the other side.

Yes we are getting the EHCP, well it’s what the school and myself are hoping for. They have also applied for the education psychologist. The school believes that she has ADHD that is made “worse” currently because she is having to deal with the emotions of the family situation. Three years with no contact with father due to abuse. Now she sees him EOW and in her own words “I have to hold in how I feel mummy when I’m at daddies”. So every other week she comes home a massive mess and it takes around 3 or 4 days to get her regulated again at home and school. Even as simple as I let them brush my hair but I hate it so much. I can’t go near her hair and she does her own because she will literally hit me it triggers her. She just suppresses everything because she says he wants me to have a fantastic time. I think she suppress an awful lot. She has just accepted ear defenders finally at school.

@Happyfarm it sounds like she can't read situations correctly, so as a result cannot understand why she's not included in things as a result and that happens quite a lot. I think that's pretty big for an 8yo to deal with. I don't know if she is supposed to have the capacity to deal with this because I as an adult I would be confused, frustrated and probably crying if it happened at that rate I couldn't make sense of it.

I just wonder if her reactions arent that out of proportion, event though extremely distressing for her and you. It doesn't sound like she's 'too sensitive', but that because she can't read situations things seem unjust to her (and they are) and tbh this would irritate the fuck out of me as well if this happened to me. Her reality also is that she does get rejected/left out as a result of her not reading the room and so this would become quite a sensitive subject to her, especially if she doesn't have the capacity to learn to read the room. It is very unfair.

I'm no expert at all, but I have heard of physical destructive behaviour of autistic kids to the point they had to attend a residential school as their siblings weren't save with them at home and a whole lot of other reasons. This is what your description reminded me of.

She absolutely doesn’t and I don’t think should have the capacity to understand at her age. She thinks she should get x if she behaves this way and she gets y and then has no self reflection abilities so ends up down the it’s your fault, I will hurt you back path. It’s very challenging. She thinks that she can tell me she hates me, wants another mum, I’m useless then 1 hour later it’s all back to normal. It’s hard, these things do effect people as hard as you try and ignore it.

You should be told when the Ed pysch is coming in. School themselves cannot diagnose ADHD as they are not qualified to do so. She needs that EP report urgently.

I cannot diagnose your daughter of course but some of her behaviours may well be attributed to ASD which is a triad of social impairments. The hair brushing could be linked to ASD as well. Whatever the causes of her difficulties she needs extra support in school and that will help her when she goes into secondary school.

Push the LEA yourself for an EHCP, if this can come from yourself you know it’s been done then. Some schools can take ages to even apply themselves so you are better off doing this. It’s going to take a minimum of six months to actually get this document in place even if the LEA agree which they may not. The more evidence you have to support this the better,

@Twatalert God, I'm sorry, that sounds incredibly painful for both her and you. As @Happyfarm said, that sounds a LOT more like autism than ADHD. I would definitely push for that educational psychologist assessment. I hope you both get the help you need and that things chill out for you x