December 2024 - but we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

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And yes, learn when to remove yourself instead of hoping/trying to change things. Sometimes that's not possible and it's not realistic to not react to a damaging environment. I think the goal can be to not get a major panic attack every time for example, but the goal can't be to not feel discomfort and be ok with something. The warning signs are there for a reason.

This is where I get confused because as you say the reaction is disproportionate to the actual event. So how do we know if we’ve read the read the event correct at all? I was told I have C-ptsd many years ago.

@Happyfarm I'm not sure myself. Admittedly, some things have been in my head at times and I was glad much later on that I didn't make a fuss.

Other times I was spot on, things were off, but I was nevertheless having an extreme reaction in my body/mind.

Thank you - that's the bit I'm struggling with, I believe them to be only slightly below average intelligence (and have struggle with emotional intelligence), and themselves a victim of awful parenting, and having rigid, limited preconceived motions of how families interact learned from problematic television stereotypes... we are all different, and I believe someone who struggles with emotional intelligence due to a below average intelligence should be given allowances/chances, extra support to understand etc... but its just how far is reasonable to expect me to go with that at my own expense. I am the child, and they are the parent, and they would recognise that the relationship isn't a super happy close one, but they have such limited understanding of how this occurs, they say things like 'spend time together' 'talk to each other' 'talk about your feelings' but then the wild mood swings make this impossible depending on the day... you have given me lots to think about.

As a sidenote - i apologise if my description of 'below average intelligence' offends anyone and would be very keen to learn the correct way to convey this.

Thank you for your reply - yes I struggle with this a lot, this person would a various points be able to recognise the relationship is not a 'close, involved' one, but they decree the ways to fix this, without inspecting their own behaviour and wondering why. I remember as a child, they would shout and then shout some more when we would try and defend ourselves or argue back, then just say we were being naughty or talking back - we were not shouty children and I have no memory of them ever attempting to deal with conflict any other way, despite my other parent successfully doing so by using other tools that weren't shouting! They actively told my other parent that we were the problem as if we just behaved, they wouldn't shout. They openly refused to take any suggestions, and would say 'I know best'

Thank you so much - I suspect they are ND, but it is hard to tell - i suspect i am also ND and have read a lot about it, but its hard to unpick ND from just pure selfish/learned behaviours, or behaviour that's developed from basically just behaving in a way that means people tiptoe around them for a quiet life and they are therefore used to getting what they want - if that makes sense?
You are right - I am struggling with the thought of this being a relationship that rears it's head in my life repeatedly for another 30 years... they would be upset if I went NC, as per my comments above I struggle with the line between malicious behaviour and simply a real inability to understand how not okay their behaviour is due to upbringing etc. And I would feel like I am punishing them for their own shitty childhood... but equally, they are an adult, that holds down a job and other relationships (albeit none with longevity) and they have the ability to learn other things, so why not this?

@Daisyvodka nothing you described suggests below average intelligence. Your description fits any other parent here. It's not possible to say from your post whether your parent would be capable of cognitively understanding what's wrong or not. Many parents remain in denial forever because it works for them and they never begin another journey. It's a defense mechanism.

If you have explained anything to your parent and they don't seem to get it it is not a sure sign of lack of capability. I have explained to my parents a million times a million different ways. They just aren't interested but want to continue their spiel.

Sorry if I offend anyone but I'm sick of people trying to tiptoe around ND people.

Some personality disorders or mental illnesses can display similar to ND. There is research on that.

@Daisyvodka all you need to decide is what you are willing and able to accept, not what you 'should'.

So a solid year has passed since my mother did her worst. This has been the second xmas without her around. My son sent her a text asking if she wanted to meet him over xmas. He sent it xmas eve early. She has yet to respond. This is the person who was so worried I somehow neglect him that she rang social services and his school about him. Same woman never contacts him to see how he is. She caused all of this pain and hurt and I guess to everyone else she is stll somehow the victim. Every single time I feel sorry for her I get reminded why I had to cut her out of our lives. I do not understand why anyone would ever be as spiteful, hateful and nasty as she is.

Your line about remaining in denial because it works for them... I can't thank you enough for this, it described them perfectly. They will occasionally have flashes of 'I'm so sorry, I'm so awful' if I am upset but it then reverts to normal.... they want to go through the motions of how they think the relationship would function more than anything else.
I don't think I'm explaining the below average intelligence thing very well - and honestly, maybe it's not accurate and I just associate certain behaviours with below average intelligence.... like not fact checking, not being able to recognise that someone isn't laughing along with them, doubling down if there's a hint they are wrong, not able to recognise hypocrisy at all.... as I'm reading this, I realise that these are arsehole behaviours....God.
And on the ND point - i would be interested if you could point me in that direction, as i strongly believe that noone should be in a relationship with anyone that does them damage, no matter what the reason, and I think often ND is pointed to for behaviours that are driven by entitlement and misogyny. Which i think does actual ND people and their partners a huge disservice. It is a complex area.

Not entirely sure what the ND stuff is about and I dont have mental time to read back. In my case my mother is 100% a narc. Proves her lack of empathy day in day out. Shes a sneak and a liar and will never change. She may or may not be ND but that is irrelevent as she is a nasty twisted woman.
I am ND though. Adhd and autism. I do not lack empathy I have more than most. I will never accept 'oh but she has issues' as an excuse. I am neurodiverse and not a hard cold cow. No excuses to be a disgusting person and being honest as ND I actually am arund and know more ND people than an NT person and none of us are nasty. Blunt yes not nasty. Narcs are nasty. They choose to hurt people. Psychopathy is not the same as adhd or asd and should never be referred to in the same light.

I am so sorry that you have to deal with this, i hope your son isn't too upset?

@Daisyvodka what you describe could be anything, it's impossible to pin down. Could be autism, a personality disorder or low intelligence or something else. Are you possibly hoping it's intelligence because everything else would be more difficult for you to come to terms with.

If you Google autism misdiagnosed you get a lot of results. Also in the other direction. There was a researcher who said that personality disorders are misdiagnosed as autism en masse these days. I don't recall her name now.

There was a time I thought I was autistic. I fit much of the description. Turned out my nervous system was totally dysregulated and I therefore couldn't cope. I still wasn't a nasty piece of work. Also the way childhood trauma and cptsd presented for me could have been mistaken for something else. The fact that I could make changes and symptoms are less or gone means it was something I learnt as a coping mechanism and not something that was in my genes.

Also, consider a combination of things. Autistic people also have childhood trauma etc. anyway, I think you are too invested in trying to figure out your parent. It takes the focus away from you.

I'm sorry you have to deal with your mums behaviour - i think you are right, thinking to some of the things this person says, they are just outright insults under the guise of 'banter', and i have seen them have similar conversations outside the family and given actual appropriate responses.... I think I have been in denial myself.

I think you are right. I'm focusing on the reasons, because i believe people who have undergone things as you describe as happened to you should be given some... not slack as such, but not written off harshly - but I can't wait for my parent to figure out why they are the way they are, AND try to work through these reasons, before I get treated kindly.

@Daisyvodka I hope your ds is ok my now young adult dc were very close growing up to my dm and dsis in hind sight to close
This is also our second year of nc with either of them although dm did call round last year on Christmas Day to thank us for her presents things have escalated over the year and no acknowledgment of the flowers I sent her this year
I feel so sad for them as both dh parents have now died and they think of them fondly but i gave them choice encouraged them even to maintain contact separately with them but they know whats going on and don't want to
I am sure dd was disappointed when neither of them acknowledged her birthday

@Daisyvodka
What you describe is called bullying, nothing to do with low emotional intelligence.

My mum was always shouting and screaming, then dad would join in, mum would smash stuff. It was awful, like growing up in a war zone. Iv been married nearly 30 years, we don't scream and shout, we talk because we don't want to upset the dogs.
Your parents won't change because they don't want to, if they did it would have happened by now. I had to stop making excuses for my parents, they were drunks but even sober they were the same. I made excuses because I was in denial, I was ashamed of them, they were shit parents, I felt stained by them, unloved, neglected.
Funny how these people can behave in public but bully their family at home, it makes them feel powerful bullying weaker people like children.

@Daisyvodka you can tie yourself in knots trying to figure out why someone is like this, but in the end, it doesn't matter. It's not important. It won't change anything.

And we really really need to get away from the idea that being ND means people are allowed to behave badly. Or that difficult childhoods mean people get a free pass. Unless you are so severely disabled that you cannot function independently, rude is just rude and nasty is just nasty.

Sometimes horrible people with no parenting skills and no interest in parenting become parents, sadly. When we are children we cope with it as best we can given our immaturity and lack of escape options. As an adult it's ok to decide you've had enough and don't like them. I don't like my parents (or any of my bio family, TBH, apart from my kids).

Daisy

They do this because they can and feel entitled to do so. It’s not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

You can only change how you react to them.

Both myself and my daughter are Neurodiverse. Both of us would be devastated if someone came to us and told us we hurt them. We may not understand how to fit in or want the same things as everyone else but no way would we hurt people. My partner is Autistic and he really is very clueless, very fixated on things and he appears to be emotionless but he isn’t. He wouldn’t hurt a fly. I guess that there will be mean ND people as much as there are mean NT people as personality comes into play also. I find that I can tell the difference because my partner will often unintentionally ignore everyone and anyone by scrolling on his phone for example. What he doesn’t do is target specific people. It’s this targeting that makes it obvious that it’s not a ND thing, it’s to calculated.

I find people like this can’t do arguments. I see families and couples everywhere arguing and repairing. Narcs don’t do discussions. I learnt that a long time ago. You go alone with them 100% or you need to change or you need to go. They will never acknowledge anything you have to say. ND people do. I value my family and open to discussing things because I want to keep them and grow. How can you go through life always agreeing. I have to say my partner isn’t too good at arguments, he will always deflect and that annoys me. I do admit that I get defensive some times but that’s the ADHD, I will come back and apologise and want to make amends and admit fault. I guess he was brought up by a narc so does have some behaviours. I’m not a quiet little do as you are told lady.

@Happyfarm agree on narcs do not discuss anything. But theyd also say 'everything can be talked about and worked through'. No mother, it can't with you.

Mine disguise it with how can she have a problem, we are so laid back, go with the flow people. Which they do look from the outside. Only it’s the mums flow. No different needs, perspectives or ideas invited. I’ve come along like “hey guys I’m someone different, I’ve my own independent thinking” and they are like wtf is this person. The mum has said about all his girlfriends he’s had “they just aren’t like us put that one back”. He has always chosen more outspoken girls. He is part of a group with his hobby, lots of people involved and wanted a partner who’d be happy to go along and chat to lots of people on weekends away. He’s happy with me, we get on, what more does a parent need. I’d be happy if it were my children. Couldn’t care less if bright pink hair or tats or weird hobbies as long as they were a good match. Still in bed bored stiff with this cough and virus!!!

He was for a few hours but he got over it. As every xmas i over compensate for the lack of proper family in our lives. I also parent alone so he really has nobody bar me and his friends and mine but he ws upset, we talked it through and he was fine afterwards. I fucking hate her for it though. He is 14 ffs.

I also suspect I am ND and I would be devastated to think I'd upset someone. It's so hard to tell with this parent as they often repeat stock phrases which fits in with what I read about masking... but then this is only 50% of the time, they can function as a pleasant person the other 50%... which also makes me think of masking. But then they will eye roll, and tut (not in a swimming way, in a disapproval way) to express their annoyance which just seems like horrible behaviour. It's so complex.

But you are all right, I should stop trying to find a reason. This person does seem unhappy with me when I don't toe the line, but then I am unhappy a lot more of the time trying to work around their mood swings, so does it not make sense for me to take myself out of the equation so I'm not upsetting them by falling short? Except of course, from what a lot of you lovely lot have said about the egos of your parents, this will damage their ego. They would not want anyone to know they do not have anything less than a cosy picture perfect relationship with their child, as they would not want to look like the bad guy... now I'm here and talking about it, I can see that it all follows the same pattern...