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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I over reacting- partner finished inside me

261 replies

MyRealBiscuit · 14/12/2024 20:48

Bit of background, we conceived a child whilst I was using birth control so are now extra cautious and he doesn't finish inside me. He has demonstrated good control of this over 8.5 months of having regular sex but the other night he "got carried away" in his words... why do I feel so crap and out of control about it? Took the morning after pill which I was angry about as I've had it in the past and it really plays havoc with my hormones.

OP posts:
Bananadana · 15/12/2024 00:27

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selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:32

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:23

This is not at all the same situation. If you read further down, it evens says so here!!

  1. We must emphasise that we are not addressing the situation in which sexual intercourse occurs consensually when the man, intending to withdraw in accordance with his partner's wishes, or their understanding, nevertheless ejaculates prematurely, or accidentally, within rather than outside his partner's vagina. These things happen. They always have and they always will, and no offence is committed when they do. They underline why withdrawal is not a safe method of contraception. Equally we are not addressing the many fluctuating ways in which sexual relationships may develop, as couples discover and renew their own levels of understanding and tolerance, their codes of communication, express or understood, and mutual give and take, experimentation and excitement. These are intensely private matters, personal to the couple in question.

Did you even read paras 25 and 26, or what I wrote?

If he did it on purpose, this applies:

The claimant consented on the clear understanding that the intervener would not ejaculate within her vagina. She believed that he intended and agreed to withdraw before ejaculation. The intervener knew and understood that this was the only basis on which she was prepared to have sexual intercourse with him. There is evidence from the history of the relationship, as well as what he said when sexual intercourse was taking place, and his observations to the claimant afterwards, that although he never disclosed his intention to her (because if she had known he knew that she would have never have consented), either from the outset of penetration, or after penetration had begun, he intended that this occasion of sexual intercourse would culminate in ejaculation within her vagina, whatever her wishes and their understanding. In short, there is evidence that he deliberately ignored the basis of her consent to penetration as a manifestation of his control over her.

In law, the question which arises is whether this factual structure can give rise to a conviction for rape. Did the claimant consent to this penetration? She did so, provided, in the language of s.74 of the 2003 Act, she agreed by choice, when she had the freedom and capacity to make the choice. What Assange underlines is that "choice" is crucial to the issue of "consent", and indeed we underline that the statutory definition of consent provided in s.74 applies equally to s.1(1)(c) as it does to s.1(1)(b). The evidence relating to "choice" and the "freedom" to make any particular choice must be approached in a broad commonsense way. If before penetration began the intervener had made up his mind that he would penetrate and ejaculate within the claimant's vagina, or even, because "penetration is a continuing act from entry to withdrawal" (see s.79(2) of the 2003 Act) he decided that he would not withdraw at all, just because he deemed the claimant subservient to his control, she was deprived of choice relating to the crucial feature on which her original consent to sexual intercourse was based. Accordingly her consent was negated. Contrary to her wishes, and knowing that she would not have consented, and did not consent to penetration or the continuation of penetration if she had any inkling of his intention, he deliberately ejaculated within her vagina. In law, this combination of circumstances falls within the statutory definition of rape.

We don't know whether the OP's husband did it on purpose. But if he did, it was rape.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:36

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That it cannot be proven just means that we don't know whether it was rape. It might have been.

OP is not overreacting by feeling that she can't trust this man any more. He shouldn't have made a promise to his wife if he wasn't sure that he could keep it every single time.

No33 · 15/12/2024 00:37

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Not heard about men being prosecuted for stealthing?

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:38

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:32

Did you even read paras 25 and 26, or what I wrote?

If he did it on purpose, this applies:

The claimant consented on the clear understanding that the intervener would not ejaculate within her vagina. She believed that he intended and agreed to withdraw before ejaculation. The intervener knew and understood that this was the only basis on which she was prepared to have sexual intercourse with him. There is evidence from the history of the relationship, as well as what he said when sexual intercourse was taking place, and his observations to the claimant afterwards, that although he never disclosed his intention to her (because if she had known he knew that she would have never have consented), either from the outset of penetration, or after penetration had begun, he intended that this occasion of sexual intercourse would culminate in ejaculation within her vagina, whatever her wishes and their understanding. In short, there is evidence that he deliberately ignored the basis of her consent to penetration as a manifestation of his control over her.

In law, the question which arises is whether this factual structure can give rise to a conviction for rape. Did the claimant consent to this penetration? She did so, provided, in the language of s.74 of the 2003 Act, she agreed by choice, when she had the freedom and capacity to make the choice. What Assange underlines is that "choice" is crucial to the issue of "consent", and indeed we underline that the statutory definition of consent provided in s.74 applies equally to s.1(1)(c) as it does to s.1(1)(b). The evidence relating to "choice" and the "freedom" to make any particular choice must be approached in a broad commonsense way. If before penetration began the intervener had made up his mind that he would penetrate and ejaculate within the claimant's vagina, or even, because "penetration is a continuing act from entry to withdrawal" (see s.79(2) of the 2003 Act) he decided that he would not withdraw at all, just because he deemed the claimant subservient to his control, she was deprived of choice relating to the crucial feature on which her original consent to sexual intercourse was based. Accordingly her consent was negated. Contrary to her wishes, and knowing that she would not have consented, and did not consent to penetration or the continuation of penetration if she had any inkling of his intention, he deliberately ejaculated within her vagina. In law, this combination of circumstances falls within the statutory definition of rape.

We don't know whether the OP's husband did it on purpose. But if he did, it was rape.

All of that you've written is superceded by this bit here!!!

  1. We must emphasise that we are not addressing the situation in which sexual intercourse occurs consensually when the man, intending to withdraw in accordance with his partner's wishes, or their understanding, nevertheless ejaculates prematurely, or accidentally, within rather than outside his partner's vagina. These things happen. They always have and they always will, and no offence is committed when they do. They underline why withdrawal is not a safe method of contraception. Equally we are not addressing the many fluctuating ways in which sexual relationships may develop, as couples discover and renew their own levels of understanding and tolerance, their codes of communication, express or understood, and mutual give and take, experimentation and excitement. These are intensely private matters, personal to the couple in question.

This entire case was about a man who refused to use condoms and had a long standing pattern of domestic and sexual abuse - refusing to use condoms being one of them. That is why the sentence very clearly states this ruling does not apply to cases where men ejaculate prematurely or accidentally despite their best intentions. Why do you think they specified this para - it's to make it clear that situations like the OP's are not within the judgement made here.

Bestwishes23 · 15/12/2024 00:38

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Then, it's simple. The OP clearly stated that she didn't want her partner to ejaculate inside her. If he doesn't have the self-control to remove himself, then he shouldn't have sex. If everyone should understand it, then why didn't OP's partner?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 15/12/2024 00:40

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:25

Someone else has kindly posted the legal standing on this position here. I have pasted in the relevant bits here:

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/945.html

  1. We are all sadly familiar with the offence of rape. It is salutary to remind ourselves from time to time of its precise ingredients. S.1(1) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 provides:
  2. "A person (A) commits an offence if –
  3. (a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina … of another person with his penis,
  4. (b) (B) does not consent to the penetration, and
  5. (c) (A) does not reasonably believe that (B) consents".
Ejaculation is irrelevant to this definition: so is pregnancy. If ejaculation occurs it may be an aggravating feature relevant to sentence: it is irrelevant to proof of the offence itself.

We must emphasise that we are not addressing the situation in which sexual intercourse occurs consensually when the man, intending to withdraw in accordance with his partner's wishes, or their understanding, nevertheless ejaculates prematurely, or accidentally, within rather than outside his partner's vagina. These things happen. They always have and they always will, and no offence is committed when they do. They underline why withdrawal is not a safe method of contraception. Equally we are not addressing the many fluctuating ways in which sexual relationships may develop, as couples discover and renew their own levels of understanding and tolerance, their codes of communication, express or understood, and mutual give and take, experimentation and excitement. These are intensely private matters, personal to the couple in question.

Why is this so difficult? In the same judgment it was clearly stated that if the man has consent to penetration as long as he does not ejaculate, and then he deliberately ignores this and ejaculates during penetration then this amounts to continuing penetration without continuing consent and therefore amounts to rape.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:41

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:38

All of that you've written is superceded by this bit here!!!

  1. We must emphasise that we are not addressing the situation in which sexual intercourse occurs consensually when the man, intending to withdraw in accordance with his partner's wishes, or their understanding, nevertheless ejaculates prematurely, or accidentally, within rather than outside his partner's vagina. These things happen. They always have and they always will, and no offence is committed when they do. They underline why withdrawal is not a safe method of contraception. Equally we are not addressing the many fluctuating ways in which sexual relationships may develop, as couples discover and renew their own levels of understanding and tolerance, their codes of communication, express or understood, and mutual give and take, experimentation and excitement. These are intensely private matters, personal to the couple in question.

This entire case was about a man who refused to use condoms and had a long standing pattern of domestic and sexual abuse - refusing to use condoms being one of them. That is why the sentence very clearly states this ruling does not apply to cases where men ejaculate prematurely or accidentally despite their best intentions. Why do you think they specified this para - it's to make it clear that situations like the OP's are not within the judgement made here.

You are assuming here that OP's DH definitely didn't intend this outcome. I'm not sure about that, and I don't think that OP is either.

Regardless of criminality, he shouldn't have agreed to pull out every time unless he was sure that he could keep that promise every single time without fail. That's where the breach of trust comes in: he broke a promise that involves his wife's body.

Candy24 · 15/12/2024 00:43

MyRealBiscuit · 14/12/2024 22:08

I understand your point and I've been with similar partners but my partner isn't like that. He is a bit older and struggles to finish sometimes. Always gets a little warning period and it really did feel like he chose his pleasure in the heat of the moment as it usually gets announced when he is close to finishing and this time it wasn't or I'd have given him a shove...

are you actually hearing yourself? I think your irrational. it isn't anyone's fault it is something that sometimes happens in sex things get carried away. this isn't rape this is a relationship.

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:45

TriesNotToBeCynical · 15/12/2024 00:40

Why is this so difficult? In the same judgment it was clearly stated that if the man has consent to penetration as long as he does not ejaculate, and then he deliberately ignores this and ejaculates during penetration then this amounts to continuing penetration without continuing consent and therefore amounts to rape.

It's not hard to understand because you are ignoring the very clear exceptions made to this judgement. The judgement was made for a specific case and a specific situation involving a refusal to wear condoms and wider sexual/domestic abuse leading to the penetration and ejaculation which is exactly why they have emphasised that something like the OP's situation is not an offence.

Exceptions to a judgement are emphasised (in their words) to avoid misinterpretation of the law, like yours.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 15/12/2024 00:46

Candy24 · 15/12/2024 00:43

are you actually hearing yourself? I think your irrational. it isn't anyone's fault it is something that sometimes happens in sex things get carried away. this isn't rape this is a relationship.

Do try to read the OP. She isn't complaining about his ejaculation if it was indeed accidental, she is complaining about his lack of remorse and concern for her.

Onceuponatime9 · 15/12/2024 00:47

We may as well say to men I'll agree to telling you a hilarious joke as long as you don't laugh. The man agrees, he suddenly & unwittingly laughs then gets accused of acting against the law. Absolutely ridiculous.

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:48

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:41

You are assuming here that OP's DH definitely didn't intend this outcome. I'm not sure about that, and I don't think that OP is either.

Regardless of criminality, he shouldn't have agreed to pull out every time unless he was sure that he could keep that promise every single time without fail. That's where the breach of trust comes in: he broke a promise that involves his wife's body.

And he could argue that OP lied about taking the pill or missed a few days to trick him into pregnancy he didn't want. It goes both ways - if she can't trust his intentions, he can't trust her either.

And that's why relationships need trust and common sense, and not assuming the worst because there can be dodgy deeds and intentions construed of anyone, if you look hard enough.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:50

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Why is OP judged more for not knowing this than her husband is? He agreed with her that he would pull out every time. It's his body, his cock and balls, so he should know his own limitations far better than she ever could, yet he made that agreement.

If it's not possible to keep that promise, as you claim, then he should never have made it. OP can't be blamed for his decision to make a promise that he can't keep. OP shouldn't be expected to know the male body better than a man and hence predict that he would break his promise to her.

This thread is the First Rule writ large.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 00:52

renoleno · 15/12/2024 00:48

And he could argue that OP lied about taking the pill or missed a few days to trick him into pregnancy he didn't want. It goes both ways - if she can't trust his intentions, he can't trust her either.

And that's why relationships need trust and common sense, and not assuming the worst because there can be dodgy deeds and intentions construed of anyone, if you look hard enough.

They need respect too. His lack of concern after breaking a promise to his wife shows contempt towards her.

Bananadana · 15/12/2024 00:59

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renoleno · 15/12/2024 01:07

@selffellatingouroborosofhate I have no idea where you're getting contempt or a lack of respect from what OP has posted, but we can agree to disagree. I like what the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales has said here:

"Equally we are not addressing the many fluctuating ways in which sexual relationships may develop, as couples discover and renew their own levels of understanding and tolerance, their codes of communication, express or understood, and mutual give and take, experimentation and excitement. These are intensely private matters, personal to the couple in question."

Intensely private and personal, and for OP to figure out her own boundaries with her DP in a way that works for both of them. As we've established, legally what he did was not an offence - the rest is for OP to figure out. Personally if sex feels so high stakes for her, and her DP's actions have upset her so much - I would suggest she leaves him, because sex should be mutually enjoyable - not so fraught with triggers and stress.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 01:09

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No man can promise to control his cum.

Then he shouldn't have promised to do so. That's on him, the owner of the cock and balls, not her. I was taught as a small child not to make promises that I couldn't keep. Why isn't this adult man held to the standard that I was during childhood?

I've been with men. Nothing to write home about. Beyond that, my sexual orientation is irrelevant to a conversation about trust. I note your lesbophobic subtext.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 15/12/2024 01:09

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You ruin your own case by grossly overstating it. Most men can most of the time.

FloralCrown · 15/12/2024 01:18

The situation you find yourself in now is either that:

A) your DP is unable to control ejaculation and therefore must wear a condom every time.

B) he doesn't need to wear a condom because he can control himself, but chose not to and therefore cannot be trusted.

These are the only two options surely 🤷‍♀️

If you're happy to give him the benefit of the doubt and go with A) the condom wearing shouldn't be a problem for him should it, because he wants to prevent pregnancy as much as you do.

So, in short, I'm presuming he's offered to wear a condom going forward?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 01:19

renoleno · 15/12/2024 01:07

@selffellatingouroborosofhate I have no idea where you're getting contempt or a lack of respect from what OP has posted, but we can agree to disagree. I like what the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales has said here:

"Equally we are not addressing the many fluctuating ways in which sexual relationships may develop, as couples discover and renew their own levels of understanding and tolerance, their codes of communication, express or understood, and mutual give and take, experimentation and excitement. These are intensely private matters, personal to the couple in question."

Intensely private and personal, and for OP to figure out her own boundaries with her DP in a way that works for both of them. As we've established, legally what he did was not an offence - the rest is for OP to figure out. Personally if sex feels so high stakes for her, and her DP's actions have upset her so much - I would suggest she leaves him, because sex should be mutually enjoyable - not so fraught with triggers and stress.

Edited

he "got carried away" in his words would be where I get the contempt and disrespect from. No mention of apology, no "sorry, that took me by surprise". "Carried away" to me means "didn't want to stop" not "got blindsided by a stealth bomber of an orgasm".

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 01:22

TriesNotToBeCynical · 15/12/2024 01:09

You ruin your own case by grossly overstating it. Most men can most of the time.

I don't think Banana has ever heard of edging or orgasm denial, neither of which would work if men had no control over their orgasms.

sunflowersngunpowdr · 15/12/2024 01:24

wrongthinker · 14/12/2024 21:05

He "got carried away" or he decided that his pleasure was more important than your consent?

Maybe you feel out of control because he took control of your body and choices. I would be very upset if this had happened to me.

FFS sake what's wrong with you? He was having sex with his partner and came in her by accident - it's bound to happen at some point it doesn't make him some kind of sexual predator.

renoleno · 15/12/2024 01:25

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 01:09

No man can promise to control his cum.

Then he shouldn't have promised to do so. That's on him, the owner of the cock and balls, not her. I was taught as a small child not to make promises that I couldn't keep. Why isn't this adult man held to the standard that I was during childhood?

I've been with men. Nothing to write home about. Beyond that, my sexual orientation is irrelevant to a conversation about trust. I note your lesbophobic subtext.

Edited

I can't fathom thinking of my DH as 'owner of cock and balls', and I can't imagine my DH making a mistake or breaking a promise (or prematurely ejaculating in me because he was enjoying consensual sex) and me thinking him guilty of a crime. I promised my boss I'd get work done by a certain deadline because I was sure I could. Turns out I overestimated my abilities and missed it - luckily he didn't fire me. I promised my mum I'd pick up something for her, completely forgot in my rush to get back - luckily she didn't think I was a terrible daughter.

Maybe that's the difference in how slights are perceived - whether you share a whole life with them, see them as human and love them vs they're just flesh and bones or the DP of a stranger on the internet. That's how 50-60 year relationships last, you accept they're human and have foibles - because no one is going that long without breaking a fair few promises.

renoleno · 15/12/2024 01:34

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/12/2024 01:19

he "got carried away" in his words would be where I get the contempt and disrespect from. No mention of apology, no "sorry, that took me by surprise". "Carried away" to me means "didn't want to stop" not "got blindsided by a stealth bomber of an orgasm".

I mean I don't want to stop when I'm having an orgasm either. Not even sure I could as I've never had to. I love my DH and WANT him to orgasm comfortably, without stress, or I wouldn't be having sex with him. Also can't fathom asking a partner I love to control their orgasms each time we have sex or risk triggering the feeling of sexual assault in me or cause an unwanted pregnancy. It sounds stressful and like a ticking time bomb. Condoms exist for this reason.

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