Wife wont let mum come round at Christmas

[Unjeffeson]

Background:
My m(41) wife hates my mum. There wasn't one incident but she just thinks shes selfish and manipulative and just wants everything on her own terms, including spending time with pur daughter. She feels my mum tried to dominate when our daughter was born and has never considered her feelings, and is rude and catty to her. My wife also thinks I take my mums side too much when i try and explain her point of view or try and create compromises. This has led my wife to feeling like my mother is ‘the other woman’, and she sees red almost every time we discuss her.

Things have been stable if unpleasant for a while, with my wife agreeing for my mum to see our daughter every couple of months for an afternoon. In the meantime my mum is on the phone to me regularly about how depressed its all making her.

Whats happened:
My mum has asked if she can see us on Christmas day, so she doesnt have to be by herself. My wife has said hard no, she doesnt want her anywhere near us at xmas. Mum can see us at some point around the end of December but not on Christmas day. Wife says we need to maintain a united front to set boundaries with my mum on this.

Ive been managing my mum’s feelings on all this for two years now as well as putting my wife’s desires first. It is important to me that my daughter knows her grandmother and that she doesnt get dragged into it. When we argue about it my wife makes ‘it’s me or her’ noises and i refuse to break up my family for what my mother wants. But dealing with mums misery on the whole thing is very hard.

What should I do? Is it okay to say no to mum at xmas so long as we have another date lined up?

And i guess more importantly - had anyone here had a mother in law you feel is so unpleasant that you prevent them visiting, keep them away at xmas etc, in spite of the difficulty it causes your SO? Where’s the line of tolerance (if there even is one)?

This is really about your daughter. I have seen too many selfish mums on both sides dominate. Your wife is being dominating and from what you said so is your mother.
This is really about your daughter having a relationship with her grandmother and not about you or your wife. The relationship your daughter will have with her grandmother will be different and it is up to your daughter (when she is older) to continue with that relationship but not allowing her to foster that relationship in my opinion is abusive.
Kinda like spouses who use their children like pawns. Children are individuals and as long as her grandmother shows her love and kindness...whatelse are both of you fighting about? Its not your daughter, thats for sure, but a lack of communication and maybe even a bigger problem than your mother.. You might not have shared values.
Wishing you the best.

Your mum sounds difficult but your wife doesn't sound very kind or emotionally mature.

My MIL was the same when I had my first child, completely dominated and really affected those months post partum. I resent her so much for how much she interfered when I was really vulnerable. She was very mean and I'm sure if your partner had the same experience she is right and entitled to not want to be around her.

Your mum sounds toxic and I don't blame your wife for how she feels.

For everyone suggesting OP takes his daughter to visit on Christmas Day - if I was DD's mum, nothing would piss me off more than my husband taking my daughter away from me on Christmas Day to see his horrible mother. Absolutely not.

See your mum another day.

Your wife sounds horrible. It is your mother!! If your mum has done nothing wrong, I would put my foot down to your wife. Allow your mom to come for at least breakfast, lunch or dinner! Geez. In laws are not always easy to deal with, but unless they have done something actually wrong they should not be excluded. Your wife sounds difficult.

Yes there is sometimes some negativity towards MILs and older women in Mumsnet but speaking as a woman who is in the 'older' category myself, it's clear that the mother has caused signficant problems for both her sons, not to mention their families. One son won't speak to her and the other son has been pushed into a position where he feels that he's the only person responsible for is mother's happiness - deeply unhealthy. The idea that he should leave his wife - and turn his child into a child of divorce - over this is absolutely batshit tbh.

Unjeffeson
I don't care what happens to me,

I have just read your reply before reading anyone elses since your post.

Wow. You sound very thoughtful I must say. Thank you for giving a list of examples etc
"I dont care what happens to me." Thats what came out to me more than anything else.
I dont know you, so I dont know (no disrespect) if you really mean that!? But if you do, I'm going with that, that to me speaks of someone who hasn't been seen and heard as a kid growing up. Thats saddens me.
You matter too. Your feelings/perspectives matter too. You too are allowed to have what you want, if you indeed know what you want!?

Maybe start there....

What do YOU want?

Whichever side is reasonable it sounds like the only way this is going to work is to keep everyone separate. Respect your DW's boundaries and don't force her to engage with your DM. So Christmas Day is off. But take your child regularly to see DGM. Gives DW a break. Keeps DM happy. This relies on you to make it work, don't just force them together and leave it to them.

OP you appear to have a decent level of insight but you are hampered by the feelings of responsibility your mother has burdened you with since childhood. You are in a no win situation seeking to solve the situation by persuading your DW to compromise against her better judgement.
The situation does not have a solution beneficial to all parties. And just try to visualise how miserable you and your DW would feel with your mother behaving in her usual manner on Christmas Day! And your DD will inevitably detect the tension.
The best solution for you is to decline to listen to your DM’s emotional tirades and to seek counselling to help you heal the emotional damage inflicted on you whilst young.
Good luck

Have you read the update from the OP?

Yes, I agree with this. For one of her own sons to go NC with her suggests a degree of commenting on his weight that is tantamount to bullying. Very gently, I wonder if it's that your boundaries are too low rather than that theirs are too high.

This is similar to the relationship I have with my MIL - who causes conflict between me and DH for similar reasons.

I can completely empathise with your wife for saying MIL affects her mental health - as mine does too. So no wonder your wife 'does nothing' to try and improve relationship - why should she when she clearly feels MIL has not been supportive/respectful of boundaries etc.

There's an American chap on Instagram - micahstephenscoaching who offers some really interesting advice and insight. Worth having a look.

I empathise with you too as I appreciate you're in a tricky position and it's sad to think of anyone being alone on Xmas day!

Having read your update, I am now thinking that neither woman has your best interests at heart! Close your eyes and search your soul. What would be your ideal Christmas? What would your daughter like?

I have to take her at face value that my mother causes her mental health to suffer.
Well ... yes, of course, because you love your wife and (I hope) don't think she's a manipulative liar who's targeting your mother for fun.

Go and visit your mum on Christmas Day alone, and look into getting some couples counselling, as it doesn't sound like the two of you are communicating effectively on this if your wife is immediately defensive when you bring anything up. Better to seek help as early as possible rather than waiting until things fester so badly there's no hope.

This is absolutely insane - you believe OP should prioritise his mother to the extent he should divorce his wife and go for 50/50 custody just so his mother gets more access to his daughter??? No wonder you spend Christmas alone. Sounds well deserved.

She makes me feel I'm the only one with a key to her happiness

This is the part that sticks out to me. You are a husband and a father. Your mother is important too, but she cannot base her life on you because she well knows (having been a wife and mother herself) that you have other duties and obligations. All the tactlessness, verbal diarrhoea, criticisms etc all happen in the knowledge that you have duties and obligations to your wife and child. She’s knowingly putting you in a terrible situation, and she’s choosing not to stop - only to complain further. Your wife isn’t doing this to you: the comments come from your mum. It’s her actions that are putting you in a predicament. Your wife is going about her business, just having a baby and being a person.

Your mother wants to say what she wants and do what she wants, then weeps and complains to you about the consequences. She’s making you suffer the consequences of her actions.

Forget your wife for a second: in your shoes I simply wouldn’t stand for it. It wouldn’t occur to me that any of this has to do with my wife. The actions in question are your mother’s. She’s using your feelings for her. Can you imagine ever putting your child in this position? Can you imagine being so incapable of controlling yourself and your mouth that you use your own child as a shield, make trouble for them?

Your poor brother did the logical thing. Your wife is too. I think the best you can do is tell her that she’s brought this upon herself, you cannot put your wife in a situation where she has to put up with this rudeness on Christmas Day of all days, and that if she doesn’t want more miserable Christmas days she should think about the consequences of her actions, apologize to the people she’s hurt and make an effort never to do it again. Most people tend to give in when they see an effort is being made.

Support your wife. She’s not in the wrong here.

Wow, you're getting a hard time here!

You're mother sounds like my mother. Fortunately for me my wife is fine with her, and my brother is you in this situation - the one who gets dumped on and has to be emotional support after her and my dad got divorced. I live thousands of miles and many time zones away - I am much more removed from it all.

At the end of the day, your wife comes before your mother. And you probably need to make that crystal clear to your mother - if she knows that either behaves better or really gets cut out of your lives, I suspect she'll change her tune!

Having said that, you need to do your best for all of them. It sounds like you need to make the relationship between you, your mother and your daughter work without your wife, and probably out of your home and/or while she's away.

Did you ever watch My So-Called Life back in the day? There's a scene where the dad, Graham, protests that he isn't taking anyone's side in a family dispute, and his wife says, "Graham, grow up. Pick a side."

Grow up, OP. Pick a side.

Team Wife, personally. Your DM sounds like a manipulative, unboundaried nightmare.

Thanks for the very clear snd honest update, OP. I agree with everyoelse. You might benefit from reading up on divorced family dynamics and also on toxic families. You had to keep the peace and sct as your mother’s surrogate spouse and rescuer as a child. You and she have what is called a “drama triangle” style relationship. Look up the drama triangle! The positions are victim/rescuer/persecutor. I can tell you right now your mother likes and lingers in the victim role and pushes you to “rescue” her from her (many) persecutors like your father and now your wife.

Of course your mother only enjoys the victim role after she has been selfish, reckless, and mean enough to ruin the baby’s nap, your brother’s self esteem, your wife’s post oartum experience. She enjoys covertly snd overtly being cruel (persecuting) and uses her victim’s anger or withdrawal as her excuse to call for your help and collapse into martyrdom and misery. Do you see the cycle?

Your wife, very perspicaciously, refuses to play this eternal game. She doesn’t want to be victim, or persecutor, or rescuer. She doesn’t want Christmas day to revolve around your mother’s psychodrama. Snd she doesn’t want your innocent child to be raised to play the same part—alternately spoiled and attacked, from granny’s reason to live to granny’s persecutor when she offends granny’s enormous ego.

You are committed to your little family. That’s good! Do some work on yourself and your traumatized reaction to your mother’s cloying manipulation. Learn to be free and happy in your marriage.

I was going to ask if you were an only child or if there was any other family - but I see from your update you have a brother who has cut all contact with your mum for similar behaviour directed at him.

OP - your mother has 2 sons, if she’s welcome in neither’s home on Christmas Day and she has no friends, that’s pretty clearly her fault.

I would compromise - you’ll go round with dc (and hopefully with wife) on Boxing Day.

or if that would be too much to be on her territory for your wife, all go out for lunch at a nice restaurant/pub.

and talk to your brother about how bad things have been for him, did you support him when your mum was being terrible to him or have you just accepted “that’s how she is” as long as it’s always someone else she directs her poor behaviour towards?

How bad is it with your brother that he now doesn’t see your mum? It doesn’t seem unreasonable for her to express concern if his health is at risk, although obviously there are ways of doing it.

I have a tricky Mil. She makes little comments to me that I find hurtful, and I am sure that she knows that as she doesn’t do it when DH is in earshot.
She also made very little effort with our (teenage) daughters over the years and as a result our dds, particularly the eldest, are not close to her. Now she also makes comments about eldest dd (19) which makes me ragey.
However, she is DH’s Mum and my children’s grandmother so even if I don’t feel like seeing her as much as I would do if she was lovely, I still encourage DH to see her and to take one or both dds over too. I invite her to events at the younger’s school , and have her to stay the night occasionally. She lives two and a half hours away so it isn’t as though we can pop in, and definitely we all see less of her because of how she is, but I absolutely want DH to have a good relationship with her.
What has your Mum done, specifically OP ?

@Unjeffeson please don’t take to heart the comments some of these posts are making against you - I think some people are unleashing their own MIL trauma on you.

As many other supportive posters have said, you seem like a lovely person. It’s really hard to unpick these relationships with our parents.

Have you said the things you have typed here to your wife? I think she needs to know you are on the same team and you understand why she has set these boundaries. Sometimes trying to explain away unreasonable behaviour - even though you are coming from the peace maker position - actually makes your wife feel unheard and like you aren’t on her team. I also agree some counselling may help you have a conversation with your mum to start a more healthy and boundaried relationship - and if your wife sees this develop between the two of you, she is more likely to build some sort of a relationship herself. But you can’t expect your wife to compromise when she is seeing no changes from your mother, or any recognition of any wrongdoing on her behalf.

It appears you know who’s right and who’s wrong. I have a not-too-pleasant MIL (I adore my FIL) and I’m lucky my husband generally understands when I get annoyed with his mum.

Im still holding my tongue with her; I try my best not to disrespect her. We are trying for a child and if my MIL does what your mum did to your wife, I won’t put up with it.

Yes, she’s your mother; but you have a wife so she comes first (unless she’s completely unreasonable which doesn’t seem the case). Your mother’s behaviour needs to change and sadly it is unlikely that will happen for people above a certain age.

Your mother needs to find some friends and hobbies and to stop trying to make her " family" fill all her socialising and emotional needs. It sounds as though it's her not your wife if your father and brother both decided to have nothing to do with her. You aren't responsible for her happiness she is and she needs to stop the "poor me" nonsense and get on with her own life rather than trying to tag on to yours.