Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 13

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

Re the discussion around 'what about ME' I agree that it can be very unfair on the NT person. Of course we need to be supportive to each other in relationships but abuse should not be an acceptable part of this.

I'm so sorry the course turned out not to be helpful for you @MetooOP it sounds like things are really hard and hope there is another path for you that involves you being supported and also heard.

It sounds like some of us are in ND/ND relationships where one NDs needs have impacted on the other ND having their needs met or one ND partner is also abusive or acts in an abusive manner. Which is why I ended up on this thread. My very first long-term boyfriend was likely ND too and never abusive or controlling. He also accepted me 'Unmasked' which probably helped as I think my first, now exH wanted me to fit a certain madked version of myself and when I couldn't keep it up he became abusive and controlling.

I am v grateful for the space. I have quite a lot of sensory stuff I realise. Seems to be getting more pronounced as I get older. The loudness and the meat smells feel oppressive to me so a place to retreat brings me solace and peace.

Your little haven sounds wonderful! It must feel a bit like the weight of oppression has lifted slightly. How’s it going with DH trying to fix himself? Does he accept things are over or is he still thinking he can win you back? Xx

I think the divorce rate of ASD/NT marriage is about 80% so I don’t think there are loads of ASD/NT relationships that works 😢

I do think that the issue is about people not being a good fit.
Im purposefully avoiding putting blame on anyone or anything there because I simply don’t think it’s constructive.
But, for me, the issue is that needs aren’t being met. And I actually think, at least fur me and dh, this is true on both sides.
As a couple there are loads that actually brings us together. We have similar values. Before I got ill, we had similar interests. We both appreciate a simpler way of life.
Where it failed is that it has been a struggle for both our needs to be fulfilled when together because they are often competing needs. Even more so with dcs in the mix
eg the dcs need to have their dad involved in their life, spending time with them vs dh needs of calm and predictability when they were little or vs dh needs of spending time on his special interest when they were older.

I really don’t think it’s ‘us’ that are the problem.
I do think that what I (and most if us on this thread) are responsible about is staying. We’re struggling, sometimes putting up with extreme behaviour, and yet have made the decision to stay.
For me, the question I’m asking myself is more whether this decision of staying is the right one for me. Just now, in my current circumstances, the balance is tipping towards staying and making it work for BOTH OF US somehow. I’m very aware that the balance might well tip the other way very quickly.
What I don’t want to do is being in that in between stage (where I’ve spent a hell of a lot of time!) where I’m staying whilst being convinced that my best outcome was to be on my own. Where I was dreaming of one thing : being away.

@SpecialMangeTout ah it’s pretty high then. I suppose the natural consequence of being in a relationship with somebody who can’t meet your needs. No one wants to live a life being invisible no matter what the reasons. I think I’m getting a bit tougher in my approach to life. I’ve backed away from a few people, including really close family lately who make me feel invisible and I feel a lot better. I think my childhood has grown me into someone incapable of being selfish and being a bit selfish is needed sometimes. I feel bad but It’s leaving space for people who make me feel better and I do feel better.

@SpecialMangeTout I can relate to that dream of 'being away'. In a weird way I seem to feel that having my own room is fulfilling that to some extent. Yet I can see what you are saying about it being a balance point and sometimes that means staying, if it means needs can be net to a higher extent. It's so complicated and not at all as simple as LTB or placing blame on one person.

There is definitely a sense of some of the oppression having been lifted, it's been draining and painful but at the same time I can see a bit of the 'old me' re-emerging and it's leading to more me time on my own special interests, more self-care and as a result my confidence is slowly increasing. Might even go into London for a couple of social events in December! Having my clothes neatly organised is making me dress more like the old me too!

Imagine how big your life would feel @ANiceLittleHouseByTheSeaWithACatCalledBrenda . How much of yourself have you let go, all those little things. I don’t think we realise how much of ourselves we have abandoned along the way. I look at photos of myself back in ex marriage and I have no idea who that woman is.

I know @Rainbow03. I am beginning to see the next chapter unfold. I’m not scared anymore, if anything, I’m excited. Really excited.

Oh I was scared. I’ve had to do an awful lot of work to develop my identity as I suffered childhood neglect and then this awful marriage. I had no idea of who I am outside of all of this and it’s terrifying at times and alien but it’s 1000% better. It’s sticking to it that a struggle with. I hate upsetting people, causing conflict. I can see my brain wanting to shift to please but I am learning to spot it. I think it’s probably a life long challenge I will have but hopefully it will get easier.

That's your opinion of someone you don't know. Its not my opinion of someone I know well.

Perhaps it’s easier to say the behaviour is abusive rather than the person is abusive. It’s not coming from the same place but its consequences are similar. This is how it was worded in court with my ex who claimed he had ADHD. They made the distinction between behaviour and the person.

Thank you for all of this

I have to say after 3 years at court and the judge keeping on referring to my ex as having abusive behaviours and not labelling him abusive like I wanted made me really mad. To me he was abusive, bad. I was wrong as he has many good qualities. I think we (or maybe just me) try and split people into behaviours that I like and those I don’t and perhaps I can change those bad ones to make a compatible person. I wasn’t looking at him as a whole complete person but a sum of parts. As a person as a whole I didn’t like him. It was partly my fault that I stayed with him. My new partner I look at as whole person complete with good and bad parts but as a whole he makes my life better.

I think this is a brilliant post. I agree.

@SpecialMangeTout who is that person you are expecting to recognise our needs? If it is the Autistic partner then that isn’t really possible. There are millions of people other people capable of meeting our needs including ourselves but the partner isn’t one of those. When we enter a relationship with a ND person I think we are always going to play a caregiving role. They are always going to be a younger person, someone who probably won’t grow socially or emotionally. We do and I think that is the issue. What was once sweet becomes bloody annoying. When we have kids and life moves on we can change and shift our roles to adjust to situations. They can’t. They are often the same rigid person from teenager years. We have to accept the dynamic of the relationship and the caregiving role, which as we’ve all come to realise is almost impossible. We often can’t have adult to adult relationships, we have adult to underdeveloped adult forever. I think that’s perhaps why ND:ND works better as there is less shifting and more rigidity of self.

Surely the behavior vs the person debate also needs us to look at the behavior after the behavior?

MeToo’s partner kicked snd hit the wall during a stressful moment when family needs and his needs conflicted. Even if you recognize that he was in a traumatic, dissociated, panic state and not as responsible for his behavior as another person would be what about afterwards?

If I have involuntarily thrown something or injured someone (I have not) don’t I have an obligation to make a repair later, to the best if my ability. To apologize for the damage done? To make amends?

Its the sine qua non of relationships: after rupture—repair. If that can’t be the relationship will inevitably shift out of harmonious orbit and crash and burn.

@pikkumyy77 I quite agree. Without repair there is only decline and eventual breakdown of a relationship.

(This is the crux of our relationship problem, rejection sensitivity, feeling blamed/shamed lead to avoidance of accountability and inability to repair. Without repair the balance shifts towards not being in the relationship anymore for me personally. Hence the efforts to build working mental models of each others’ thinking and try out other ways like letter writing to make repair possible).

Sometimes they are really sorry after and
you know that’s it’s happened out of panic and you repair. But it’s dangerous behaviour. When mine threw shoes that hit my 2 year old accidentally I left. I don’t tolerate that behaviour wherever it stems from.

Oh my god, I am so angry, and this time not with my H!

Got an email sent to everyone who went to the support group with the facilitator with a link to video about the ' double empathy gap' which she mentioned in the session. This video is by someone calling themselves 'the autism advocate'. it says ND people just empathise differently, though it does not explain how their empathy manifests which would have been helpful, but they definitely all have loads of empathy that we just are not understanding.
It then basically it goes on to say that everything is the fault of NT people because we just don't understand, there is a strong implication that we are responsible for the suicide and deaths of autistic people, all autistic people want is a world of reciprocity and mutuality ( I assume the author thinks I am just missing the many acts of reciprocity from my H as they are manifesting differently from how I expect) but instead us bad NT people do none of the work, none of it at all, and instead, hypocritically ( he actually uses that word), us bad NT people make autistic people do ALL the work. All of it. He emphasised that very clearly.

I cannot think of a more misjudged video to send to spouses of autistic partners. You know that ' WHAT ABOUT ME?????' thing? Well, what about me? To send a video to spouses of autistic partners effectlvely telling them that they just aren't putting in any work, whereas their partners are putting in ALL the work, is possibly one of the most misinformed, misjudged things I have ever come across.

I, I think in common with all partners of autistic spouses have put in 100's or more probably, 1000s of hours understanding my H. I have a pretty solid understanding of why my H reacts as he does. When my H gave our then five year old a terror of bridges by repeatedly telling him stories of bridges collapsing, and when I told him the effect this was having on our son and he needed to stop telling these stories, and he replied angrily by accusing me of 'never letting me talk to my son, you don't let me talk to my son', I understand that he reacts this way not just because he cannot tolerate criticism, but because he cannot conceive of any experience other than his own. He has enjoyed telling these stories, he sees these as positive Father /son moments that he finds deeply satisfying. Me saying these are terrifying encounters can't compute to him as the experience has been a really happy and mutually satisfying one, in his perspective ( which is apparently a differently expressed but equally valid form of empathy, according to the video, and maybe this is the sort of thing the author was thinking of when he said autistic people just want a world of mutuality). And as the fact that he is terrifying his child cannot make sense against this 'experience' and so has not imprinted in his brain, this means the only way he has of interpreting what I am saying to him is that I am telling him he is no longer allowed to have these happy and deeply satisfying Father / Son conversations with his son whom he genuinely loves and cares for. And that's why he reacts as he does. I get that. I get that because I have spent 100s/1000s of hours observing and analysing and making links so that I can understand this. That has been a huge body of work I have put in.

God, I am so frustrated! This is not a support group for parents and spouses. Its an advocacy group for a politicised autism advocates.

I feel the same way about the “double empathy” argument. I have read the “essay” that circulates several times and its more of a blog post or a pop psych blog instagram graphic than a reasoned puece of psychological argument. It is essentially contentless.

I am so sorry that they have taken the support group in this direction. I think its a fundamental, categorical, error to put spouses in a group with parents in the first place. Their duty to their ASD person is quite different from that of a partner.

Right, I'm going to briefly reply to this.

Firstly, from my H's perspective this is not a moment of his needs and the family's conflicting. He is not capable of thinking about it like this. The 'family's needs;' bit is missing in his brain. To him, I am just messing with this stuff and not allowing space for his stuff. That is the beginning and end of what is happening within his capability of understanding the situation.

Secondly you are 100 percent right that the rupture and repair cycle is essential to a successful relationship and this is one of the biggest factors in the demise of our relationship. But he cannot repair, because to repair he would need to understand there is a rupture. And that's the link he is missing. To him, him kicking the wall is not a rupture because he has no awareness that this behaviour has any impact on anyone else. He is just standing by himself kicking and shouting in anger and frustration ( he occasionally does the same if his cooking is not going the way he wants). He has no awareness that his outbursts of temper affect anyone else. His ability to empathise and understand that others have their own experiences too, is that low. See my post above for further illustration of this.

I agree that parents and spouses should not be together, its not fair on either, but probably especially not the parents. If spouses are frustrated with partners, it can't be nice for parents to hear that sort of stuff.

I agree its not a piece of rational psychological analysis. But the facilitator is an actual psychologist! She was was excited too when the other spouse said they had heard that autistic people can have empathy but that they have to try so hard to empathise it can look like they are not, or something like that, and the facilitator leaped in with a huge smile and looked really excited and said' ooh its called double empathy, did they mention that, I'll send you a link'. So its obviously a thing she is a big fan off.

She's clearly just a massive autistic advocate. I guess if she only allows 'positive language' in her group she cannot know how NT family members really feel. Or maybe she doesn't care as we are just support humans. There is mention of 'taking care of yourself' in the booklet, its one short paragraph on 'going for a walk' .

I had a counsellor telling me ‘you know, people with ASD are empathetic too’.

My answer on that was ‘what’s your definition of empathy?’.
Because if empathy is the ability to feel someone else feelings, dh has plenty of that. He is actually getting very dysregulated when I am not ok.
If empathy is the ability to put himself in my shoes, then he doesn’t.

Tbf to her, that was the end of it.

But that’s my issue with the double empathy thing. Empathy is never defined.

I think your analysis of your dh is good—your theory of mind is that he has no (accessible) theory of mind for you and the children. You are just objects in his landscape. But then terms like abusive/non abusive don’t have any meaning. You are unable to assign a moral component to his behavior because it is profoundly amoral and takes place without regard to the social relationship or humanity of the counterparties. Whether he is intentional or helplessly reactive he will harm sentient beings around him. That seems unfixable.

The patient/child model for autistic people is profoundly demeaning to everyone. I wish the psychologist for the group had some insight into the lack of mutuality and comfort that this caretaker and facilitator role enforces between partners. Its not sustainable and its not healthy.