Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 13

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

That’s a really helpful and informative post @MetooOP . I’m sorry things are so shit. Xx

@twinklytornadobear that sounds very hard. Personally, I think a lot of these ND behaviours in married men are hugely exacerbated by the way society teaches men they are the centre of the universe. So there behaviours, whether from an NT or a ND man are tolerated or even expected.... how ma y women for example are told to let men sleep when the babies arr small because they need it or they work or whatever.

But it's different for women. I am absolutely certain the adhd wr see in ds and dh comes from MIl. I also think her ADHD is "raging" for want of a better term or it might be ASD (DH and i suspect DN is autistic too so that would also make sense). But as a young woman, she HAD to find ways to mitigate. Dh has stories that when he used to tell me them I saw them as her being a bit of a crazy person... I have a different lens now. She drives me crazy today sometimes but I actually have a lot of.sympathy because I understand her better and unappreciated that the things that can be irritating to me are her coping mechanisms. More importantly, they allowed her to function as a wife and mother in, more or less, the way society expected her too.

Long winded but my point is that things like the refusal to consider other opinions or the selfishness of putting themselves first is accepted so much more by men that they don't even see it as an issue. Whereas MIL had to sort of hide that, as much as she could, because expectations were different for her.

I totally agree with this. My MIL is ND for certain because her two sons are. But she doesn’t practice what she preaches. She is so so introvert but she has made her sons the centre of the world and they are unable to see anyone’s point of view. She is odd really, the perfect housewife but has made them into almost narcs really by not teaching them that all our opinions are just as valid. She and they all think their options are fact and it’s infuriating. She has made herself the centre of the universe also in an odd introvert way. I struggle with all the family really and this behaviour. They struggle with me as they can’t put me in a box.

Thank you @BustyLaRoux That actually made me cry! I just don’t get appreciation from anyone ever ( well, my kids sometimes but I’ve trained them to!).

It’s a testament to how bad you’re feeling when the slightest bit of appreciation from a relative stranger can make you cry. It can be so lonely. I think it was you (sorry I lose track of who said what sometimes) that had recently clocked that their partner just didn’t really see them as an actual person to consider at all. Like you only exist in terms of the service you provide and are not a person in your own right with needs and feelings. I’ve often said to DP that I feel like he thinks of me as a secondary character in his play. He is the main character. Then close to that come his two DC. And I am on the periphery as someone who comes in and out as required. But I’m only a bit part. I don’t exist when I’m not on the stage servicing the main characters. 🙁

Also DP brought me a bowl of sweets today. They’re my favourite. I know he was trying to be kind. But I have said repeatedly that I’m trying to eat less shite. And he ignores me and keeps bringing them. And because I love sweets (I am such a child!) I can’t say no and so I eat them. But I don’t want them!!! I’ve told him not to bring them to me as I know I will eat them. And still he keeps bringing them.

Today he brought the bowl of sweets and I said “no thanks. That’s very kind of you but I won’t have them thank you!” (Yay me!!! Trying to be more direct without being ungrateful. Wish I didn’t have to, but the message will hopefully sink in that I am capable of communicating my own needs and I don’t need him to pre-empt that or flatly ignore what I’m saying and do what he thinks best!)

@BustyLaRoux Yes Busty that's me! I think someone else described it as us being NPCs (non player characters) in our husband's lives. So true!

On the sweets, my H went away on a long trip with his mates. I told him repeatedly before he left, ' if you get me a present, don't get me chocolate. I don't want chocolate.'. He came back with a present for me of three large family size bars of chocolate and a large bag of chocolates. When I said ' I told you I didn't want chocolate', He replied ' But you like chocolate.'

Personally, I think a lot of these ND behaviours in married men are hugely exacerbated by the way society teaches men they are the centre of the universe
I actually don't think this is the case with my H. I think he is very, very disabled by his autism which means he actually isn't capable of understanding other people are people in their own right. To him there really are no experiences but his, no feelings but his and no thoughts but his. In fact, there are no hands but his. I think I have mentioned before that there have been several occasions where I cannot do a physical task he can as my hands are just not big enough. He simply cannot grasp this. One time I tried really hard to explain this to him and he just sat there with a really confused look on his face, looking at his hands and turning them over and over as he looked at them. Let that sink in. He was trying to understand the message that my hands are smaller than his and his strategy was to look really hard at HIS OWN hands. Not mine. The concept that there is someone other than him to know, is just not available to him.

Its tragic at the moment as our eldest really wants his Dad to help him build a plane. His Dad is just not organising himself to do this ( I have offered to help but I am crap at anything practical and son knows this). I have tried to get his Dad to get6 his arse in gear and arrange a time to start on this project, but I knw that he will just never plan it in. The plane building is not his idea, he obviously is not interested in it so it will never be remembered as a thing to do or prioritise. Eldest is now working this out too and is really upset by it.

NPCs yes that’s it. Actually my DP is hit and miss in this department. He can be quite thoughtful. But a bit like your DH, he doesn’t necessarily listen to me stating my needs and disregards the information. I assume he thinks I’m not capable of expressing my needs so he has to overrule
me. I wonder if your DH heard you say no to chocolate but decided he knew better. Or whether he just didn’t compute you telling him
as you’re only a NPC and therefore not really worthy of having an actual opinion!!!

@MetooOP @BustyLaRoux thank you so much for your responses - it really means so much to just be able to express some of the uglier feelings I have around it. I struggle as my closest friends both have DC with autism and so I don’t feel I can be open about my experience as a partner as they are obviously looking at what the future holds for their own children.

I have previously asked DH why he wants the assessment. The answer is always ‘to get support and be better for you (= me)’ but - exactly as you say, @BustyLaRoux - he can never articulate what that support means or what ‘better’ looks like. It’s almost like he doesn’t explore thoughts in his head and is following a script. He’s been having counselling for about 18 months now to deal with some issues from his own upbringing (his DF died when he was in infant school and his mum, who I suspect might also have ASD, coped by isolating them and creating a classic golden child (BIL) and scapegoat (DH) dynamic). But again - it feels like he just takes to the counsellor whatever happened in the 4hrs preceding the appt, rather than having a real aim for it. Personally, I don’t think
the counsellor challenges him enough, it’s just a smile and nod situation.

I genuinely don’t think he realises how much I do. I’m a company director in a volatile sector constantly worrying about keeping people employed and yet still do all the life admin and try to explore ways of addressing any issues we’re having with the kids, arrange social activities etc. whilst he is in a safe profession that’s a bit of a bubble to the real world, and has nothing to worry about.

@MetooOP sounds like you’re doing an amazing job as some of your DHs behaviours sound very challenging. That must be really hard on you - I don’t think DH is at a point where we’d qualify for the same level of support. I’ve expressed concern that I don’t want him using a diagnosis as a get out of jail free card. I do, however, want to try and find time to discuss it with him properly. That’s a bit of a joke really though as he rarely wants to talk and sees any alternative opinions as ‘challenging’ or ‘undermining’ him.

Today has been reasonable - he hasn’t hit the threshold but what I really would like is if when I point out that he’s nearing it that he removes himself, instead of doggedly continuing on in a situation I can see is about to escalate. Anybody had any success with this?

Your situation sounds heartbreaking @MetooOP . I don’t have any wise words. I’m sorry. I can feel your heartbreak coming through your posts and I wish desperately I could give you some comfort or some light or anything which would make it more tolerable. I don’t think, from what you say, there is much he can do to change. Is there any possibility of a way out for you and your DC? (Not that I will ever tell anyone they should leave as that isn’t my place). Apologies if you’ve already said all this. As I say, sometimes it’s hard to remember whose story is whose. 🫂 xx

No @TwinklyTornadoBear i haven’t had any success in that respect but like you I can sense things escalating so I will say something like “I don’t really like the way I’m being spoken to right now so I am going to leave”. Harder to do on holiday and with children in tow. I do sometimes step in when he’s blown his top at his DS. But that’s usually after the meltdown threshold has been reached. I calmly say that I think he has been unfair and it was unnecessary to shout like that and spoil a nice evening. He may back down and go and apologise in that instance. Or he may tell me I’m wrong and shout at me!

I think it’s good your DH is saying he wants to be better for you. That shows a glimmer of hope in that he knows you are being affected and at least recognises you have pain and feelings and are an actual person with needs. Being on here has been such a help as I am able to make sense of a lot of DP’s behaviour. For me understanding helps me to accept. I’m not going to be able to change all the aspects of his behaviour that cause me pain, so there has to be acceptance as well. DP is capable of change and I have had to learn to accept things that I don’t really want to. I guess if we are not to drive ourselves mad or incapacitated by ill mental and physical health, then there needs to be capacity to change on one side, and capacity to accept on the other. If those things are not possible then it is a very lonely and miserable road.

I would just like to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts, experiences, frustrations, knowle9dge etc. This thread has been so valuable to me personally.

I suspect my dh is on the spectrum because each of you have described so well many of his personal quirks that drive me insane. He would never recognize nor admit having any problem whatsoever. That would be way too threatening to his identity.

I live in a country where autism is rarely spoken of and is light years behind in treating.

To read about startlingly similar experiences, not being heard, acknowledged, validated, only a coplayer in his life drama, the loneliness and isolation of being married to someone with so little theory mind is sooooo comforting. I am not mad after all. Thank you thank you.

No @TwinklyTornadoBear no success at that at all.

@BustyLaRoux No, I can't afford to leave. I have a full time job now but large scale redundancies are coming and I am not optimistic about surviving them. Frankly even I don't think my post is needed, I don't have anywhere near enough to do and what I do do, is not really what my job is meant to be. In fact, I don't think our whole team is really needed. Given my age and background and how hard it was to get a job in the first place, I am going to be fucked if I am made redundant.

It is hard. H's autism is a mix of extreme lack of empathy and mindsight, lack of self- insight, lack of ability to organise and plan and co-operate (unless its one of his ideas he is intrinsically motivated by), lack of ability to recognise he got something wrong and so no learning curve. Oh and very poor autobiographical memory which exacerbates the inability to learn or improve. And a truly shocking lack of common sense.

On the chocolates, its not that he thought he knew better. He just won't have remembered I said I did not want them. This may be because he does not hold people in mind, so the things they say are not held onto. And the lack mindsight would also have meant he had no understanding of the relationship significance of remembering I did not want chocolate, so I am sure it never registered to him as a significant piece of information to remember and act on. I am sure what I said was just background noise to him, like a radio show that is on but you are not giving much attention to.

@MetooOP I relate to the feeling of being background noise. I also really really feel the difficulty of living with a partner whose with executive dysfunction and poor memory are really quite extreme, and who has severely limited capacity for understanding that other people have thoughts and experiences and understandings of the world that differ from his - that everyone else isn’t just an inferior / inadequate / malfunctioning version of him.

It is just so hard to try to explain to people. I think there’s a sort of ingrained misogyny about that means it’s much easier to believe that a woman might be a hypercritical controlling harpy with some kind of Muchausen’s by proxy that causes her to compulsively pathologise her husband, than it is to believe that a grown man who can (intermittently) hold down a skilled job might also have debilitating challenges in social understanding and everyday life tasks.

See also the idea that if the male partner presents with these challenges it’s his female partner’s fault for ‘standing for it’ or ‘indulging’ him, or for not telling him exactly what he ought to say and do at all times (‘he’s not a mind reader!’) or for creating an atmosphere that infantilises him and holds him back from developing adult life skills. It’s somehow never anything to do with him and his own innate capacity; she just hasn’t motivated and instructed him correctly.

i Will catch up reading but wondered if anyone could help with the current argument I have with dh..
He forgot to book his hair appointment last Saturday and said I will go in the week (he got frustrated at not being able to book it but what do you expect when you leave it until the last minute!)
fast forward to this week and of course he forgot again then found there is only one slot available. This slot is when I am out and he would have to take our son. I said it wasn’t really fair to take ds (who didn’t want to go) as he had not planned well. Oh god the argument we have had! He says I am being over the top and over reacting.
he also keeps saying it’s not a big deal to him.
i keep replying it may not be a big deal to him but it is to our son.
he just doesn’t get it!
he is stomping around now but I said to make an appointment next week instead.
for the record had he had been apologetic and said he felt bad etc we would not have argued but he cannot take responsibility at all

I suppose I am asking if anyone can relate? In the outside it would sound like I am being petty but honestly the amount of times his poor planning impacts us! I have also been told not to try and micro manage him so told him I will only interfere and remind him things when of impacts us. So if he messes up and it only impacts him that’s his issue. But why should things impact us?

Why did you bother to try to “correct” him? He can take your son and get his haircut. As long as he isn’t asking you to do the child care he has promised why interfere?

Oh because my son has asd and really hates going to the hairdressers. I wasn’t correcting him so a bit confused by that comment

I’m not sure what’s the answer @Thanksforchatting

I know dh would have taken your comment as a ‘correction’. Like ‘I can’t do anything right….’ It wouldn’t have gone down well.

And I’ve also learnt dh needs to learn through natural consequences - like taking ds to the hairdresser and having to deal with his meltdown either there or arriving back home.
But it’s fucking hard to let him do that when I could see the impact on the dcs. And there have been times when there was no other choice but to intervene.
Its the only way dh learnt though.

Nowadays, the dcs have both left home so it’s only me and dh.
i tend to leave dh do his things. My boundary is that I will not be used as an emotional punching bag when it goes wrong. And I will not tolerate things that affect my needs being met.
Its a pretty low threshold and tbf, you also need to high tolerance to being treated wo care.

@Thanksforchatting i can relate to the poor planning. DP doesn’t plan well. Either that or he massively over plans and takes any enjoyment away by meticulously forecasting all and any negative scenario, no matter how unlikely, and mitigating each so that a relatively simple task (leaving the house for example) becomes ridiculously complicated with multiple water bottles and snacks and different clothing for all weathers and phone chargers - like a mountain expedition when all we’re doing is popping out for a couple of hours. But ask him to book something and he’ll just leave it or forget and then blame someone else that he can’t do the thing he wanted to do! The scenario you describe does sound quite familiar.

However I think if you pointed out to him that “he has not planned well” this perhaps led to the argument. I try not to state the obvious “well YOU didn’t book it and now there are no slots!” as DP is aware of this (hence trying to cast blame around). I consider it unhelpful for me to state his failing as he won’t take kindly to it and it serves no purpose really. If I really feel some learning might be useful then I might say “I think next time you’ll need to book a week ahead. Why don’t you set a reminder in your calendar to do it a month from now, for your next haircut?” (He probably won’t do it, but I’ve sown a seed and maybe eventually it will sink in). I’m not sure pointing out he has failed to plan ahead is conducive to a peaceful existence.

I get that this impacts your son. I’m not sure of his age or how profound his needs are. My stepson is autistic and could cope with sitting in a barber for half an hour with an iPad but children are all different. Is it the end of the world? If your son simply cannot do that and it would lead to an emotional meltdown then no, DH obviously shouldn’t take him and will have to have his haircut on his own another time (and maybe pre book!) On the face of things, although annoying that your DH has done this and frequently does things like this, it doesn’t appear to have major consequences this time round. It sounds as if this is a small incident but one which has irked you due to a build up of multiple incidents and resentment along these lines and you’ve made a comment which wasn’t very helpful which has caused a big argument. Apologies if I’ve misread the situation.

No that’s fine and helpful. I just feel I have to tip toe around and am wondering how long o want to carry on living this way to be honest.
i had pointed it out so to speak as he denies things and I suppose I am trying to get him to see what he does and help himself but am realising through these threads it’s fruitless. I have done the whole maybe wrote things down or suggestions but I get comments back which include “ I am an adult I can run my own life” so I step back don’t say anything and then these things happen which have consequences to the rest of us.
i said a while back if it affects us then it’s a problem. Why should my son have to be affected by his poor planning? I don’t think that’s fair. Why should I live with the affects of these things too?
i used to buy all his mums bday gifts and since stepping back and saying that’s for you now he subsequently forgot and had a very cross mother in the phone. It’s awful to say but it made me laugh inside. I left that to him as he tells me off for managing him and won’t say things if it does t affect me or the kids. But I will say it again if it does affect us then why should we. E ok about it?

You dont have to stay and let it affect everyone. But don’t let your irritation at his systemic issues blind you to the fact that he has a limited range of motion. He won’t be educated by you. This is never a teachable moment.

You yourself, don’t enjoy the argument and bad feeling if you bring up his poor planning and his affecting others (taking your son to the barber shop).

You did enjoy the stealthy consequence of his mother complaining over the missed gift. This situation with your DS doesn’t lend itself to the same pleasure because you don’t want to use your son’s discomfort as a tool to correct your dh.

That’s a reasonable choice on your part. But it also teaches you that in a family there are going to be few situations where “natural consequences “ don’t end up affecting you all more than they educate or change him.

There isn’t one weird trick to changing a person like this into a different person. Its not going to happen. You are just learning more about what you can tolerate and where your own breaking point is.

I agree. I am unsure what I can tolerate when it affects me. I did say to him and have said many a time it’s a lot about the lack of empathy when these things happen as much as it happening. I find it very hard when something happens and the response is not I’m sorry but a “ it’s no big deal” as this makes me feel very dismissed for my needs. I do feel if there was a genuine sorry or what can I do to help rectify the situation I wouldn’t feel so bad.

@TwinklyTornadoBear in our situation the ASD diagnosis has genuinely been transformative. DH now works with an autistic coach and counsellor. Part of this funded through Access to work. He dislikes therapy but has learned there greater self-acceptance. Knowing about alexithymia and that he’s not a ‘bad’ person but struggling with challenges. We’ve gone from being unable to talk about our marriage problems to writing and talking a bit. It’s not in any way perfect, intimacy is still hugely derailed still, and I do despair sometimes. But it’s a lot better. I just wanted to pose the counterpoint to PPs experiences, ofc nothing is guaranteed. Also DH paid less than £1k for the diagnostic process, which is still a lot but better than £2k.