Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 13

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

@FreshLaundry its lovely to hear some more positive stories.
Thank you for sharing.

@Bunnyhair Yes it is hard to explain to people. I've stopped trying. His behaviour is so incomprehensible, that people don't get it and then this happens:

See also the idea that if the male partner presents with these challenges it’s his female partner’s fault

And yes, in general it really pisses me off that no matter how badly a man behaves, somehow its made the woman's fault. Must be great being a man. Zero accountability.

Pp talked of natural consequences. These don't work with H. He has natural consequences a plenty. It does not matter how many times something H does, does not work. He will just keep doing it over and over and getting the same results but will just blame someone or something else for it not working each time.
He has no learning curve. Its astonishing to behold.

@Thanksforchatting I do feel if there was a genuine sorry He can't give a genuine sorry if he is genuinely unable to feel sorry, I guess.

OMG it would be great if we could get some progress like this.

All I really want is for him to stop having a go at the kids and to be able to co-operate in getting stuff done around the house. Which could be achieved through us agreeing, and keeping to, a routine for basic tidying and cleaning.

That's it really. I'd settle for that. It would stop nearly all of our arguments. I don't expect him to ever notice or appreciate anything I do. Not expecting empathy or support or encouragement. Not expecting him to acquire any information about me or who I am ( which he clearly never has done). But if the arguments would stop that would free up space for normal daily chat between us and that would create a door for some friendliness to come back. And that would be great.

Its that simple, that basic. Yet I get told by H that I want 'perfection' and expect him to be 'perfect'. He has no idea!

Hello everyone - not posted for a while, but been lurking & learning from all of your posts, so many of which resonate. I have been feeling like things are going relatively well with DH, who is likely AuADHD, and reading your posts makes me more confident that I am also ND, partly because I don't find the lack of connection with my DH as difficult as many of you say you do - I am mostly happy to do my own thing while he gets on with his. However, there are still issues- in particular I really struggle to understand his lack of interest in helping people - or more accurately his aversion to helping or being asked to help or both. DS is approaching GCSEs and is asking about rearranging his room to help with studying. There was talk of a fold-down desk. I would love to help with it, but am scarily impractical, whereas DH could probably make one from scratch in an hour or two using materials he has lying around and his VAST collection if tools, but I know he won't want to & thinking about suggesting it is making me feel very anxious- is this something others have issues with too?

@NDornotND my DH cannot bear being asked to help, or expected to help, or to have any sense that anyone might conceivably want his help. It’s a demand avoidance thing, as far as I can tell. He will respond with what I can only interpret as thinly veiled murderous rage to any request for assistance. He won’t wash a dish that isn’t his (not that he often washes dishes), he won’t hold a door for someone who’s struggling with a buggy or who’s using a wheelchair.

He’s quite happy to be on the receiving end of other people’s help, however, provided there is no expectation whatsoever of reciprocity.

It’s one of those things that contributes to a general sense of being nothing to him except an appliance.

How can you live with that level of PDA expressed as “thinly veiled murderous rage?” I just would find it soul killing.

@MetooOP perfectionism is definitely a thing isn’t it? My DP refers to him “failing” all the time. As if he thinks other people will call him a failure so he gets in first and says “so basically you’re telling me I’ve failed??” And I’m like “what?! No. I’m not saying that at all!” I have often wondered if perfectionism is at the root. This misconception that everyone else is demanding perfection when of course they’re not. What you describe as wanting is very far from perfection. Strange that your DH would see it that way. I guess any demand is seen as unreasonable.

If my partner is asked and does what he’s been asked he literally thinks he is a hero. He will go into great detail about what he did start to finish. Eg yesterday he cleaned the drive of leaves and he was very excited to tell me what he did from the beginning to the end and then took me on a tour. How exciting! I mean it’s great he does things but I do things all day every day and never mention it. It’s childish
does he want a pat on the head!?
My daughter won’t pick up a single thing that she did not put there. She wouldn’t wash a single thing not hers or pick up a toy that’s not hers. This doesn’t work in return as everyone else has to pick up her stuff! Ones 8 and ones mid 30’s and there isn’t much difference in behaviour really!

Hi @NDornotND . How upsetting. Why does he have all these tools if not to use them?! Does he enjoy a project? Is there a way of planting a seed and having him think the desk is his own idea?

Thanks, it's helpful to hear other experiences. @BustyLaRoux Oh, he LOVES a project! But only projects that he decides to do independently and that nobody else has any input in. He doesn't do teamwork. And he often doesn't finish them or throws anything away, so there are half finished hat stands and allsorts in various locations around the place. I'm not sure I am wily enough to get him to think it was his own idea....that would be ideal...
@Rainbow03 mine does the thing where I have to go and look at what he's done too - but not generally for things he's been asked to do - I rarely ask him to do anything & if I do and he actually does it, he'll be irritated rather than proud ....
He is also a perfectionist, but I don't feel like that is what is underlying the not wanting to help..and hates criticism (but don't we all?)...it seems more like a strong negative reaction to not being in complete control. Once we had a row (can't remember what about now) and he said that I was unhappy because I had "failed to subordinate" him! Which is ludicrous really, but gives some possible insight into the thought processes going on.

It is pretty soul-killing. It’s how he responds to requests at work as well. He has tremendous issues with job interviews where he has to do tasks in advance. It’s one reason why his work history is so patchy.

I get around it by never asking for help or trying to do anything at home that I can’t do entirely on my own (because DH also can’t bear having tradespeople in either, in case they do things ‘wrong’)

@NDornotND it’s so hard, isn’t it. My DH is also not able to be proud of anything he does that wasn’t his idea, and will half arse it as much as humanly possible. And if I thank him, he gets a look of thunderous anger as though I’ve added insult to injury. I think like your DH he does feel that to agree to a request is to submit in some humiliating way.

Our DC has - since infancy! - refused to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’, which clearly feel to him like coerced speech. Also at school if he’s asked to draw or write something, he can just about make himself do the bare minimum (and will often then tear it up or scribble it out before the teachers can see it). Praise also feels like a demand to him, as it communicates that he’s done something we wanted him to. So if we praise something he’s made he will often destroy whatever it was, or hit us, or bite himself so hard it leaves a mark.

@bunnyhair that’s interesting about your DC destroying things that he’s done when praised. I’m starting to suspect I have some behaviours which may come under the ASD umbrella. And I remember vividly HATING praise when I was a child. I would also feel like I wanted to undo or destroy things if praised. Not all the time. But a lot of the time. I have often wondered why I felt like that.

As a child we can’t articulate our feelings so we resort to fairly strong, often physical reactions. I suppose then as we get older we learn to be more circumspect (or not as the case may be!). And other people’s tolerance for strong physical reactions lessens as we get older. A tantrum might be expected of a little child but ideally our emotional development means we have more skills to recognise and manage our feelings when we’re an adult so tantrums are not really tolerated. I think for autistic individuals that emotional development isn’t there, and the strong physical reactions are still happening. Many of us describe the emotional meltdowns we witness akin to tantrums!!

As an adult I have tried to recall just what it was I was feeling that made me want to destroy things that were praised. For me, it depended who the praise came from. If it was my DM then I quite liked it. Most of the time. She was kind and loving though. I trusted her and I felt safe. Though I do remember feeling embarrassed whenever I was praised even if it came from her. If it was my dad though I wanted to undo whatever it was. I hated receiving praise from him. It made me so uncomfortable. I think I loathed myself so much as a child that praise just made me uncomfortable. I wanted to physically squirm. Feeling good about myself was so not what I was used to and I don’t think I could handle it. Better to feel like what I did was shit as that was a more comfortable place. My dad’s praise was so unusual (criticism being much more his thing), that him praising me was just awful and made me feel weird and strange.

I dunno, your DC will undoubtedly have their own reasons. Your post just reminded me of some of the behaviour I did as a child and the time I’ve spent reflecting on this as an adult to try and work out what I was experiencing at the time. (Probably not helpful to you! Sorry!!)

@Bunnyhair Yes, you get it, we're dealing with the same issues - I find it really difficult to get my head around because I like helping people, it gives me a sense of satisfaction. My DS has similar issues with praise and the school rewards systems really don't have the desired effects- he finds them demotivating. He also used to refuse to go to fun places if I (or someone else) was being too enthusiastic about it. When he was little my parents organised to take him to the zoo - he usually liked anything animal-related and had enjoyed zoo visits before - but too much fuss was made and he point blank refused to go...one of many similar incidents...

@NDornotND For my H, that would be about it not being his idea to do the project. He will organise himself to do things he has thought of and is excited about, but anything else, he will just forget about (no matter how often reminded) and not organise himself to do.
Its part of the lack of empathy, mindsight and not understanding that anything has a relational value. He doesn't hold these things in mind as he can't understand their importance to anyone else if they are not important to him.

@NDornotND this is where I get stuck between what’s narcissistic and what’s ND. Either way I guess it’s incredibly damaging in a relationship if you take it too personally. I have in the past taken this as that what I want is just not important and neither therefore am I and then get too invested in what the other person wants and completely loose myself.

@BustyLaRoux it’s interesting how so many different factors come into it. DC loves it if we praise something he’s done in a video game, because he can be 100% confident we have no ‘agenda’ re video games - we aren’t expecting or hoping for any particular outcome, and if anything we’d rather he spent less time on video games. And it is us coming into his world. DH similarly is very moved by praise for his creative projects (and, to be fair to him, would be genuinely interested in and supportive of any of my creative projects, back when I had time for them.)

But as @MetooOP says his general stance is anti-relational somehow - cooperation or doing things together feels like being subjugated. We can only spend time together when it’s his idea and he picks what we do and the topic of conversation. If it’s my idea sometimes he can force himself to go along with it but completely dissociates - and often has a total nervous system crash afterwards where he has to lie in bed for a day or two feeling unwell.

Reading these stories is so sad. No support, no connection. Having to constantly manage the partner and put your own needs at the back of the queue, especially those with ND children who require an equal amount of attention and careful management. You are all amazing! Your families are so lucky to have you.

Hi all. A Christmas conundrum💩( couldn't find a puking emoji)

After finding out last year that, with FIL no longer alive, very few people visited for Xmas....MIL decided in January she would shell out loads of dosh ( extremely unusual) to rent a large house for 2024. For a whole week.
So she can sit in an armchair like lady bountiful whilst the faaaamily thank her, and do all the necessary organising of meals etc.

We have a very old cat. So I cunningly worked out that I could work around that to only be there 4 days max. ND DH said he wanted to do that as well . Totally up to him. She really dislikes me, probably worse now I've gone VLC after her last stunt.

My problem ...I went away for 5 days last week to help out with the grandkids. I'd ( probably very stupidly) mentioned that if necessary it might be cat accompanying/ I'd stay at home. Happily. Xmas is no great shakes for me.
Cue H ringing his sister, cats apparently allowed, and I strongly think he thinks we'll both go for the whole week.
I'm to learning be more assertive., so I've tried to tell H in no uncertain terms not to make unilateral decisions. But, once again, he has. It's as though all previous negotiations don't exist. He'll now make out I've said things I haven't. I'm a baddy.👿 I'm trying to keep him away from his family ( I'm not, I just don't facilitate/organise things any more, so it happens less. And anyway, isn't that meant to be a 2 way process ? Not always the we visit, they can't be arsed ? And tbh i dont invite them any more, no point after 25 years. Wotever).

Help ! Any thoughts ?
Good to vent anyway.

Ps
I suppose it's the old 'sunk cost fallacy', but after 25 years of (second for me) marriage, I will hang on in here. Plus I'm 69 (yay!) soon. I haven't got the energy for radical change.
Trying to put my energy into house retrofitting/ reading/ getting out, alone or together. Mumsnet is a godsend.

We're not as stressful as some couples I see here, probably because H ( although younger than me) isn't overtly antagonistic. Age, need for me to organise anything not habitual, company ? definitely a driver so he can drink, if out. ( age is definitely a factor. Whilst H just ignored my feelings when we met, he's more wary of my reaction now.
I visited DS and family last week. ND , differing presentations. DS has decided now he's not ND after all. But then ( more testosterone? he did his usual thing , when not working, of ranting about XYZ and not allowing anyone else to talk , including me. Despite saying I can always talk to him. Apparently he's empathic. (He can mask well BTW) So sad

But I still feel like I'm disappearing gradually. I can't make myself talk much anymore, there's no emotional reciprocity. I talk feelings, he'll respond with a comment about batteries. He doesn't see my feelings. Forget what that's called. Alexithymia ?
He knows enough to say "I do love you, you know " from time to time.

Sounds stressful @KeeponReading

I strongly think he thinks we'll both go for the whole week

How far away is the house for Christmas? Can you travel separately so that he can go for the week but you don't have to?

Forget what that's called. Alexithymia @KeeponReading If he has this then he won't be able to see images in his mind. So if you say ' dog' he won't see an image of a dog in his mind. Its also associated with poor empathy and poor autobiographical memory.

I will be going over for 4 days 👌
I took a deep breath and said as much. He said he's also only going for those days. Tbh going together means he doesn't have to use the bus or his small motor bike. I'd have to have the car (cat).
I think he'd been rethinking. Maybe I'd do better communicating if I use a mixture of silence, then later on an assertive statement.
'Luckily' I was away last week when he told me the revised 'plan', so I couldn't either a) react b) avoid because I felt fed up or c) try to think up an excuse. Assertiveness is great, in principle, but H can see it as aggressiveness if it doesn't meet his wants.

TLDR: DP behaving in very predictable autistic fashion and is now the one who is annoyed!

DP doesn’t have a car at the moment. I have asked him numerous times to get a cheap runaround but he says he’d rather hire one at weekends. I suspect what he means is he enjoys driving the fancy hire cars and doesn’t want a cheap banger. It means through the week he often needs to use my car. And sometimes at weekends. It’s caused numerous issues. He is often late back when I need my car. Or he wants to borrow it when I had plans to be somewhere so I have to change my plans. He’s scratched it when parking more times than I can count and often drives when he’s over the limit!! It’s caused a lot of tension and he has never apologised for the scratches and gets annoyed if I express annoyance.

He asked to borrow it yesterday to take his DD to a lesson she enjoys. The lesson is about 25 mins drive away. He said he couldn’t hire a car this weekend and if I didn’t lend it she wouldn’t be able to go. I had plans to go shopping with my DD but I felt bad for her so I agreed. He told me the lesson was from 2:00 to 2:30 and was only half an hour and they would leave the place at 2:30pm, or 2:45 absolute latest. I said OK so you’ll be back 3:15 absolute latest then? And he said yes. We had this conversation more than once with him reiterating the times and the length of the lesson. I had wanted to go out with DD at 1:30-2:00 so it was pretty inconvenient to do them this favour but I didn’t want his DD to have to miss her lesson as she really enjoys it.

It gets to 3:05 and I am watching on findmyiphone and I can see he hasn’t left yet! I am sitting with his DS and say “ffs, I am in a real hurry to leave and he knows that. He always does this when he’s borrowed my car!” His DS then informs me the lesson is actually 45 minutes not half an hour and finishes at 2:45! I wasn’t pleased. DP had told me several times it was only half an hour and they would rush back and be home absolute latest by 3:15pm!

I said to his DS that I bet he won’t apologise for being late (as he never does) and I bet he will try and tell me that he told me all along the lesson was 45 mins and finished at 2:45 as he can never admit he was wrong and tries to change what he says he told me and then blame me for “misremembering” or not hearing properly. His DS agreed he does this all the time to him too but said not to mention anything as it would likely set him off 😕 I said no, I won’t say anything. I know which battles to choose. If I say I am annoyed he will just find a way to turn the tables and deflect the focus from his behaviour onto mine and get angry so the attention isn’t on him being in the wrong. So no, I won’t say anything.

He comes home. It’s just after 3:35. I know it’s only 20 mins late. Except it’s not really is it? I was already delaying a nice afternoon with my DD by an hour and a half, and now this was an additional 20 mins. And he had misinformed me about the timings and I knew there would be no apology. So I was quietly cross. He is full of thanks for the car and she had a great lesson etc etc. I just gather up my things and say it’s fine and leave. The traffic is of course shit and we don’t get to the shops until after 4pm ☹️

Then I start receiving the messages all about how it wasn’t HIS fault he was late. The lesson started late. He was “disappointed” I had been “bad mouthing” him to his DS. I replied and said I don’t know what he means by “bad mouthing”, but yes I was annoyed. I was annoyed he told me the lesson finished at 2:30 and was only half an hour when that’s not actually true.

Of course comes the very predictable message that he always told me the lesson finished at 2:45 as it’s a 45 min lesson and he had told me that from the offset. 😫 And it wasn’t his fault it ran over. How I can call the place and check that THEY were running late if I want! But again saying he is very upset that I have been bad mouthing him.

So I reply again and say I haven’t been “bad mouthing” him and that I know what he is doing. He was wrong about the lesson times and is trying to pretend it’s me that got it wrong and is now playing the wounded victim and making issue of some aspect of my behaviour to take the focus off him because he knows he made a mistake and he knows I am annoyed. I questioned whether this was an appropriate position to take and suggested a simple apology might be better. He then said he had apologised numerous times. (Again this is not true). And again he reiterated how upset he was that I bad mouthed him. I replied again and said I had no idea what he meant by that phrase and all I had done was predict all of this to the letter and that in fact he has done exactly as I predicted!! So not sure what element of that counts as “bad mouthing”, more wearisome predictability of his behaviour!!

To his credit he acknowledged that he gets anxious and disappointed in himself when I am annoyed with him, and he knows he gets defensive and tries to flip the focus onto me by getting annoyed (which I thought was very impressive of him to actually recognise and admit that). But then he spoiled it by saying that wasn’t what was happening here. He was genuinely angry that I would bad mouth him! (He doesn’t see that his brain is working in the background and looking for some minor thing he can make a drama out of as a defence mechanism. But he cannot see it right now as he locked in this obsession over the idea he has been bad mouthed and it is all he can focus on).

So yes, this was all very predictable. I wish his DS hadn’t said anything. Annoying really as he was the one who asked me not to say anything as he knew it would set his dad off! And then as soon as my back was out the front door he has obviously stirred the pot! But DP and both his DC are like this. They LOVE drama and pot stirring. I should have known better than to voice my annoyance. It’s just all so bloody tiresome. And now DP is refusing to speak to me.

A simple “sorry I got the times wrong” would have sufficed!

Sigh!