October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@almondmilk123 your comment "There's this undertow, an old primitive dynamic from the deeps, that could suck me under if I get too close, or my defences are down.' has really resonated with me. I guess what we need to do is be aware of it, name it and see it for what it is. Hugs to you too.

@almondmilk123 that primitive under tow is so true. I cannot quite put my finger on mine but it is true.

what a huge relief it is to come here and feel.understood and validated in our experiences. Having others put into words the confusion in our heads and be able to express it perfectly ! I am so grateful for it and it has saved my sanity.

Two whole hours spent with partners parents this afternoon. The only conversation yet again the brother, their eyes glow when they talk about him. The amount of times the mum invalidated my child was unbelievable…”don’t make a fuss….that’s not scary…don’t need to be scared about that” etc. I don’t parent like this! Now I feel shit that I spent most of the time filling in the silence with nonsense rubbish. It’s not like I can or want to talk about us and what we’re up to. Just an awful painful experience each time.

Those words really resonate with me too. I am also very grateful, although I don’t post much. The despair, loneliness and isolation of being in this situation is beyond words. It makes me second guess myself constantly. ‘It must be me’ ‘Why am I attracting this/ did she really say that’ etc etc. it’s a total head fuck. It could send you insane.

I’m reducing contact with my mother. Every single conversation with her is about her needs and how I can help meet them. Last time I spoke to her I said actually this time I can’t meet your needs (paraphrasing) as I I have XYZ big things happening and I’m stressed. She went on to invalidate every single thing to told her I had going on. It’s an inconvenience to her, there is no empathy, she hasn’t checked in on me since. I’ve seen a message she sent to my sibling recognising that I’m stressed but framed more as an inconvenience than a suggestion that I might like some support.
Anyway, this is all normal. The point of me posting is that she went on holiday recently and yesterday a package arrived in the post for my kids. It’s souvenirs from her holiday, but really bad ones and the kids don’t understand why she picked these things for them.
So she has now text me asking if I received the package. And I’m meant to say yes, and say thank you. She will then ask for a chat and I’ll feel guilty if I say no. The chat will then be all about her, her needs and how bad her life is.
What will happen if I just don’t reply? I don’t want reply but playing games is her MO and not mine and I don’t want to stoop to that.

chocolate maybe you've just hit your NC point? Or at least it's a chance for a reset. So you know what she wants, ok, you can still choose not to give it to her. You don't want to reply so don't. You could be doing anything right now, maybe you're on a long day out and not checking phone until tomorrow or unwell asleep in bed. If you really doing these she'd have to wait until tomorrow for a reply, so she can wait then. Just because you're there does not mean you have to be available and remember she doesn't actually know you're there anyway. So reply tomorrow then if you want to. Lots of people would just forget to reply to such a text at all. So two options. Become flaky (or at least pretend to be) and never reply having "forgotten" or reply tomorrow "when you saw it". If you don't want to thank her then don't, you have to be true to yourself. You could reply "yes x", that's not rude, it acknowledges her and is friendly. If she wants to chat just don't answer the phone or if it's a text then you can stop, pause and think what to do, which might mean doing nothing at all.

I read a quote that says to stay away from those who trigger the unhealed part of you. It got me wondering whether there is even a way to heal a part of you that was traumatised when a child because you can never go back and undo what was done or what you believed as a child. I think it adds more concrete evidence to the going no contact. It’s all there is you can do to stop this trigger. I’m probably like everyone else who talks a good talk until face to face and then it all goes to shit and you decent into childhood and loose all bloody control of yourself. I hate myself after contact.

I need some practical advice and opinions please.

Parent visits the area for our birthdays tying it in with visit to friends. New boundary: I'm not willing to have them spoil birthday any more with their toxic presence (and have declined past two).

As usual there's no asking, just telling. Text saying "coming to area X date unsure of time". So not specifically saying coming here, but I know that's what's meant.

At some point (unless I go completely NC right now!) I have to reply saying no thanks but I'll meet up another day before/after if you like.

My question is do I do it now? Or do I ignore for now (thereby staving off the drama for a while longer) because text didn't specify meeting me and was just general info? So I could wait for the specific text with timing and confirming day and decline then, but that may not come until the day before, which would suit me as minimum room for drama. Is it rude to ignore for now when I know darned well it's implied that we meet on birthday? Bearing in mind it won't be a wasted journey because they'll visit friends anyway regardless. WWYD?

Can you not be home? Book a lovely stay somewhere then you aren’t there anyway.

I'd love to do this but finances don't allow. I could lie I suppose but a trip away is rather an elaborate lie to keep up successfully!

You can heal it, with a good therapist, or if you’re lucky with an amazing partner. You can revisit the trauma in a controlled way, in safety, and adult-you can heal child-you. It’s bloody painful and terrifying, but totally worth it once you get through it. The child in you believes your survival depends on your tormentors. You need to show child-you that you can survive and thrive without them. The triggers are clues that show you where your wounds are, so you know where to look when you are ready to heal.

@SamAndAnnie

Can you say that you've already made plans with friends that day or are going somewhere you know they wouldn't want to go?

Or

Research for ticketed events online and say you've booked to go there so unfortunately you'll need to see them another day

Maybe I could do that Laura. If I was dealing with normal people, definitely. I know I'll get a lot of quizzing about who the friend is, where we met, where we're going/been etc. Which ought not to be a problem, except I'm keeping them on an information diet and they don't know who any of my friends are or anything about them. A ticketed event would work better but then I'll get judgement for how I afforded it, which will rile me up.

Aaaargh this very very simple thing is a living breathing exercise in why LC doesn't work!

The thing is I’m absolutely fine when I’m not faced with them. Doing well, happy but as soon as I have to face them this feeling comes back. I’m inferior and I don’t really know how to behave. I start jibber jabbering away or there’s silence and I hate the silence. I don’t want or need anything from them as I’m aware they believe I’m less than them and I can’t change that. The whole world seems to shrink, it’s an odd feeling. The only way I can make it not happen is to not be around them. Which is stupid as they just a couple of humans out of billions. My whole being knows they are a threat to me.

It's the conditioning, from childhood. I had an epiphany moment at 60, when M pushed me into a panic attack, for having dared to go over for the weekend. After she'd had a fall. The reversal in 'power' was too much for her to take.
She overtly relished my reaction.
But then a lot less when I decided to avoid her.
All of a sudden, she 'loved' me.

My initial saying No was ...terrifying. when I heard her voice on the phone, after psyching myself up to answering, I shook.
It was insane.

All my reactions reverted to the very scared little girl she made me into.
Ps I no longer fear her. Taken me 8 years, but I grew up. Now she's wary of me. I'm indifferent.
What I'm trying to say is that your reactions are normal. We carry around our small child inside us. The first step is awareness...then, in my case , loads of reading. From Striving to Thriving/ Children of Emotionally Immature Parents/ Toxic Parents (free online). The Out of the Fog website is very good. Patrick Teahan and Dr Ramini on You Tube.
Everyone finds their own favorite sources.
( for me, counselling wasn't so great re getting past the point of just being an interesting case history)

@Happyfarm This is so well-said. Hugs. Lots of good advice on here.

@KeeponReading that's an amazing story.

You can flip the dynamic but it's never wholely satisfying. My dad suddenly started saying he loved me after he'd driven me into borderline suicidality (kinda, yeah it reflects on me too, but i wasn't remotely before the incident, i was merely stressed out!).

Before when I said I loved him he'd be like 'I don't like all this love stuff, its creepy and dishonest' which i guess I was supposed to take as a form of intimacy in that I understood him so well I knew he didn't really mean it. But he did mean it.

Suddenly afterwards 'I love you'.

Well its ringing a bit hollow now.

First off, hugs.

Reading your post, it looks like you would like to ignore it and then just refuse the day before. Given they are such a-holes who can't communicate more maturely, you know this will be easiest for you, so in that sense, it's a simple choice.

I'm wondering what is your hesitation?

I'm wondering if its the same problem I have - that these strategies to preserve oneself hurt the other person. Just because they are monstrous PITAs, it doesn't mean they don't have all those emotions you/I have. They still have biological brains and feel want/need and the pain of rejection (possibly not love - jury out). It's just that they can't negotiate it properly with you.

So when you shut it down to avoid them and minimise drama, you may be stoking it up for another time. That's the problem I have - I've just barred my Dsis until Xmas and I know she's going to be v upset and confused by that. So it'll come back on me eventually in some form.

I don't know if this applies to you? It might not be rude exactly because it's justified by long standing problems in your relationship with them. But it is a rejection as they are almot certainly fishing ot see you. The question is, really can you get away with it without causing trouble for yourself later down the line. I hope you can!

Or is there another reason you're hesitating?

@almondmilk123 . Unfortunately I don't see it as amazing, but commonplace

Reading your post, it looks like you would like to ignore it and then just refuse the day before. Given they are such a-holes who can't communicate more maturely, you know this will be easiest for you, so in that sense, it's a simple choice.

I'm wondering what is your hesitation?

You were fairly accurate there almondmilk! 😁.

My main hesitation is questioning my perception, I guess. So it's helpful your go-to response is "they're a-holes who can't communicate maturely" because that's the bit I was wondering about. Like, wondering am I wrong about that.

I've let go of the responsibility for their emotional reactions long ago, because it isn't my responsibility and never was. So I'm fine with my actions hurting them, so long as it's justified and I'm not being the a-hole. This is because I need to be true to myself and I'm not a rude person. That's why I wasn't sure if I "owed" them more notice that I'm not going to fall in line with their plans.

They've rankled me with their expectations, because I've declined the situation for two birthdays before now, so they should reasonably expect me to possibly decline again, there's no justification (in my eyes) for them assuming I'll be available.

I perhaps should have mentioned there's also been some weirdness prior to this text, which I thankfully decided to brush off with a non-committal answer, because having received this text I can now see plainly that it was an attempt to advance manipulate me into a situation where I'd "have" to agree to the visit.

So all of this has lead to me feeling a little angry and I was unsure whether, by ignoring until whenever they actually voice directly an intention to come see me, I may have been acting like the a-hole out of anger.

I know that had they been polite in their intentions (their words are fine, they've not been rude there, it's just the telling instead of asking) and asked to meet me, thereby giving me a choice, I'd have replied straight away to say "sorry no, that's not convenient, we can meet before/after though".

Regards my actions in the present coming back to bite me in the bum later, I'm not worried about that, I'm taking each incident as it comes and dealing with it as best I can at the time.

I know in my heart of hearts that I'm flogging a dead horse with this relationship. I'm just hoping I can slide that horse's corpse down the hill and round the corner before I admit it's not going any further 😔. I'm hoping for a natural end to visits due to age and infirmity preventing travelling. Like, oh dear, what a shame, but we all still love each other, so it's fine (while secretly relieved that it's over). It will mean I can keep up the happy-family pretence, without having to actually be involved and experience the toxicity. This would be the most low-drama outcome, so the one that hurts others least.

If that doesn't occur then all I'm doing right now is kicking the can down the road and will have to actively go NC at some point, with some or other behaviour from them necessitating it. There won't really be any practical fallout from that. I'm one new-phone-number-and-new-rental-contract away from disappearing, so will be able to completely avoid any resulting drama from narcs or flying monkeys.

I move around a lot so the moving isn't as much upheaval as it might be for some who own their homes or who live in the same town as their tormentors. I can disappear just a few miles away. One of the reasons for the information diet. They can't haunt my friends or workplace if they've no idea who or where.

I've not posted in a while but have been reading the updates and I am sorry others are having a tough time as nothing has changed in my situation still nothing from the opg so it is now 10 months since I raised my concerns and it's still not even with an investigator I've not been to see dm as the last couple of times she was polite but didn't invite me in the house which I probably playing into dsis hands as she can bleat on I've done nothing for dm recently so she obviously deserves what is left of the inheritance as she's been spending it before dm has even passed away

I am try to just get on with my life not question why they have done this to me not blame myself or feel sorry for myself but I had a bit of a wobble today while on my ownI enjoy my own company so could be hormonal as I am peri menopausal usually spent most weekends with dsis and dm they were always the first I told dc to ring with any news exam results swimming badges everything and it made me sad not having a family anymore

So as this is my safe space i will share it with you week 2 for dd in her job as an occupational therapist assistant in a women's mental health unit and she's smashing it. She's been scared nervous anxious etc as this is her first full time job after full time education and probably because she studied psychology she over thinks everything She's got her masters graduation date so that's something to look forward to we took dm to dd undergrads graduation dsis and her best friend dh cousin streamed it and we had a big family meal afterwards. Sadly dm won't probably ever know dd results in which as a teacher she would of been incredibly proud thanks to dsis

@Spendysis well done to your daughter, you must be incredibly proud of her. It really is a grieving process to not have the supper that you thought you had. Big hugs to you.

Similar with me there have been moments where I would share stuff with family it now I don’t bother. Not spoken to my mum for almost 3 months now, although I am happy with it , it’s a taste of life going forward, I am now one of those people who don’t have a relationship with their mum and that is a statement I would never have imagined and is taking time to accept. The more I am doing the inner work with reading and therapy I am becoming more grateful for the awakening because it was an illusion anyway, what I thought was ‘close’ was in fact enmeshed and codependency. The more time I am spending away from them the more I am seeing that is was never a good relationship and I was missing out on meeting my own needs because of their influence.

As you accept this change you might find yourself seeing things you never noticed before and you may find the distance suits you better.

@SamAndAnnie you sound a lot stronger than me re worrying about it coming back on you. I get that you don't want to be the a-hole - that's my strategy too, mainly so they don't have an excuse to hurt me again.

I don't think it's avoidable, though - setting boundaries will always come across as rude to people who don't want to think in any deep way about relationships and their workings or hold themselves accountable for their mistakes.

You sound a bit stronger-minded than me.

@Spendysis i don't know enough to understand your story but I feel your pain. I'm not NC yet and hoping never to be but we'll see. I get that feeling of 'normally i'd be with my family' and 'how TF did I get here?'

Hugs and a sad but genuine hurrah for a safe space.

@Supamum3 thank you for your kind words I hadn't thought of it as grieving but you are right
The counsellor i had been communicating with hasn't got back to me so i should probably look for another one. I think I was a bit triggered yesterday as I was doing some online Christmas shopping and unsure whether to bother with dm this year I think I may just send her some flowers.
I am trying to accept the situation and although i still sometimes get triggered it is no longer in my every waking thought and the anxiety I had trying to guess how I will react to future situations has also reduced so I am getting there

@Supamum3
'because it was an illusion anyway, what I thought was ‘close’ was in fact enmeshed and codependency'
Spot on.
It is how were brought up, it's all we know but once you start seeing it for the toxic, dysfunctional behavior that it is, you can't unsee it.
I also found going NC dealt with the lifelong, low level, background anxiety that had been draining my energy. As I got older I didn't have the energy to deal with anything let alone all my mums bullshit, I felt permanently wired and stressed. Life is much calmer, quieter and happier without her.