October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer

Here you go

My partner told me a story yesterday that just about sums up his mum. When he moved out at 19 she brought him a bin as a leaving present. Then as handing it over she said oh you don’t need a bin do you as one was already provided, that’s lucky as I need a bin so I’ll keep it. He finds it a funny sweet story….how narcissistic!!

Hello everyone,

I posted somewhat regularly in the past thread, but I felt very vulnerable to share my story so I've changed my name specifically for this thread. I always read you and feel very thankful to all of you for sharing your stories: you are very brave.

I guess my "problem" is that I don't trust myself. I don't trust my memories of my childhood and certainly don't trust my mother's "recollection" because it changes like the seasons. My mother has many of the so called narcissistic traits, and my father is a textbook enabler. Both of them are typical emotional inmature parents (mother very emotionally inestable and father very passive and childlike). I've read all the books (literally, 99% of the recommended in the op of this thread, and then some!). I always go back to them whenever I feel insecure and, lo and behold, there it is again: confirmation of what I've been feeling all my life.
But no matter how many times I search for (and find) validation, even from my wonderful counselor, I always go back to feeling paranoid: it's all in my head, maybe I've been manipulated by my counsellor/the books, I have a very vivid imagination, I'm attention seeking, I'm difficult... I feel really paranoid and messed up in my head. I have pseudo panic attacks in which I don't know what's real anymore...
I'm LC with my parents: they live 7 hours away and we see eachother maybe 4 times a year. Sometimes me and my family go to them, and less times they come to visit. This weekend they'll be visiting. Whenever there's going to be contact, all these "symptoms" start: the paranoid self doubt, the anxiety, I always get colds or other kind of viruses, I am very tense with my children and DH, I feel really down and see everything with a negative light...

I don't know the point of my post, I'm sorry. I guess this is the only thing I can share right now? I feel I need a handhold, really.
Thank you for reading...

I chose the name "Friendly reminder" because that's what all of you are to me: a friendly reminder that I'm not crazy/alone/making things up...

Hi @FriendlyReminder

I get it.

I often wonder if I'm recalling conversations/events correctly - not just with 'family' - even at work! It really has effected every relationship on any level.

I once even asked someone to check my version of events with someone else and that person said to me "Why do I need to check? That's your recollection and how it made you feel" and I was like "Wow!".

My Parents are too frail to visit my home any longer and to be honest it's a relief. My Parents used to bring a white glove with them to check for dust!!!

My reply is of no use and I have nothing profound I can advise you other than to say at least once the weekend is over, you'll have a bit of peace!

@FriendlyReminder I don't have any real advice and I don't really quite know what I'm doing on this thread - I'm not really talking to anybody but what I'm reading makes me feel less alone. Your post did that. What you say about tensing up and illnesses coming on as contact approaches. The feeling that its all in your head, you've been manipulated by the counselor, not know what's real.

I feel all that too. I am going to visit DDad at half term, maybe, and just so worried about the impact. It'll probably be fine - it's not a slow drip of awfulness with them, they're very nice mostly, but the ambushes and flare-ups have left me so broken.

But is that all my own bloody fraiilty ruining a perfectly good family? Shouldn't I just get on with it - losing all that is too sad.

But should being part of a family hurt so much?

The more I think about it the more confused I get. I lose my sense of reality.

I think I may be resonating with people who are just not sure, for whom going NC is an agonising dilemma. I got that idea from the NY times article posted earlier in the thread. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else.

I just can't understand whats gone wrong.

Hi @almondmilk123

I understand.

This is how it is after a lifetime of this behaviour. The self-doubt is horrendous.

It's only been this thread that made me stop, think, question - is this normal?

No it's not normal.

They're not normal.

Then as I shared more and more and questioned people over their relationships, I started to feel so sad. I know now this is grieving for the family I wanted to have. I can't pinpoint what happened.

My family aren't generally openly horrid - more sneaky behaviour and back-stabbing behaviour.

I am NC with my sibling.

I remain limited contact with my Parents as they are elderly and in ill health. Though I still see them 3 times a week and speak regularly this is 50% less than a few months ago.

It's a struggle mentally and physically.

I dread the next stages as I fear this will all escalate.

thankyou @JustLaura The sadness is immense.

Was it clearcut with your sibling? i'm already NC with one Dsis, but the other Sis used to be my best friend and it's unthinkable that we are even LC. It has to be partly my fault.

My mum is dead. It was unravelling before her death but it speeded up afterwards. My Dsis looks after my dad.

I have less pressure on me to do the caring as a result, although i have taken on some responsibilities for my MIL.

Are you the main carer?

I'm going to try to go to sleep now but thanks for being there in the middle of the night and the middle of the sadness, and hugs to you.

No problem @almondmilk123 I suffer with insomnia. It started when all this started.

Re: your situation - why is it partly your fault? Which Sis looks after your Dad?

Yes it was clearcut with sibling. More of a natural step than a big scene. Sibling and their Wife are now the main backstabbers though.

Sibling is the golden child to my Parents.

Sibling does nothing for them yet is put on a pedestal. It's always been this way though.

I feel lost and as though I don't belong.

It's good to chat to people in similar situations. Thanks.

This month we have reduced contact with mum. It's costing us money to put more formal childcare in place but worth every penny. Almost everyday I'd get a call or test asking when she'd "no longer be required" because she needed to "make other plans". She came once a fortnight to care for our youngest so whilst appreciated it wasn't a huge demand on her time. I called her as soon as I got the confirmation from work and nursery. Then it was "well, now you're going to be taking the day off I'll come and visit, shall I come next week as usual" um, no. She's been complaining how boring (not the word I'd use) it is with our 16mo and the moment we put our hands in our pocket and say "fine, we'll look after him" she wants to come. Not for the grandchildren, but for me or a "person to moan at".

This is piecemeal in comparison. I honestly feel sick. Christmas. DMIL is terminally ill. This will likely be her last Christmas and I feel DH should lead on what he wants to do. DMIL is unlikely to be able to host (DFIL died a few years ago). I told mum this, that we'll play Christmas by ear. And she said "that's not very fair on me, leaving me alone at Christmas". I think my response was fairly incredulous. FWIW I have 2 siblings. And father is at home too.

I mostly feel sad for my children.

this is me to tee!.
My relationship with my sister has completely fallen apart since my father died . I no longer see my extended family really and I would have considered my sister one of my best friends ! We are v v low contact . The odd text message that's all. She has latched onto my mother and frozen me out and i I now finally realise that in my birth family love is never unconditional and people only use you when it suits them. The hurt has been overwhelming and I can't stop ruminating on it. So I get it completely .
@FriendlyReminder
I understand entirely . The constant analysing your childhood and second guessing yourself is horrendous. I have always reverted back to being a scared little girl around my parents and every visit would leave me so low and feeling a useless failure. The drip drip.of judgement is so damaging. But you are not imagining it. People with healthy family dynamics do not grow. up to struggle like this ! x

Do narcissistic parents change the way you think about things and change your reality? I was just thinking about all that I have and how grateful I am for my house and garden and all the little personalised things I have done. I never used to see any of this because it was never mentioned or praised by my family so it was almost invisible to me all that I have and all that is accomplished. I used to think I had nothing or done nothing worth having when in fact I have wonderful things and achieved really amazing things personal to me and my life. They sort of stop you from seeing how amazing you are?

it is an interesting question! And I will let you know when I get to the stage of realising how amazing I am ! I am still in the never good enough mindset!
Seriously good on you for taking the time and effort to turn your perspective around. So much in life is about the battle in the mind and a positive perspective! I really struggle with that myself . But you are right it takes distance to gain perspective and once you disentangle yourself from the whole situation it does start to change your viewpoint .

The drip drip of judgement has resonated SO strongly with me. I realised very recently how my mother's judgement was still affecting me so much whereas I wouldn't let anyone else affect me this way. I'm working on it, going very low contact. This has led to me consciously giving up on having any kind of meaningful relationship with her, and I feel much freer. A bit scared, a bit guilty, and dreading her aging more, but definitely freer - really oddly, my desire to binge eat seems to have gone for now.

Your description of how you feel could have described myself before every visit, text, phone call before NC. You’re definitely not alone and there’s a very good reason you feel this way. Be kind to yourself and realise this is their doing, not yours. Xx

To follow on from my last post, last week there was an incident when I knew I had to give up on her. I had taken her to a book group and we had just made ourselves hot drinks when she bumped into me (she is unsteady) and the boiling water hit my arm. She said 'oh did I burn you' and I said yes you did, she said 'well you bumped into me deliberately' and went and sat down. Such old patterns emerged (as a child I couldn't make a fuss) so I just went and sat down myself across the table. Turns out I have a second degree scald. I spent that meeting telling myself never again, never again putting up with her bullshit and never again keeping quiet in public with her bad behaviour. It was so upsetting, but I will probably have a permanent scar to remind me of who she really is, and I can see clearly now.

@flapjackfairy your comment;

I have always reverted back to being a scared little girl around my parents and every visit would leave me so low and feeling a useless failure

This totally!! I think it’s a some form of PTSD. My NM could intimidate me into feeling I was aged 7 again, even though I’m in my 50s. So relieved to be free from this now I’m NC. Xx

That’s sadistic. You deserve better xx

@itsnotagameshowthat’s bloody terrible behaviour. Just shows the zero empathy. They completely alter your reality.

I can’t remember the word I’m looking for but it’s how they alter our reality and stop us from experiencing what we do and make us think things that we don’t. It’s really long lasting and I’ve only just been able to realise the voice in my head is not my own (not in a crazy way). I’ve been seeing and experiencing my life through the eyes of people who aren’t on my side!

Thank you. I can't imagine not being concerned if even a stranger had burnt themselves on my hot drink, whether it was their fault or not. An eye opener. My mother is married to an abusive narc (not sure if it is common for narcs to get together but she is the covert one, always doing good deeds for her friends) and I seem to get the brunt of her awful behaviour (almost as if she is passing on the abuse when she is not with him).

I think they are probably a good match. My MIL and FIL are both narcs. The MIL is covert and Malicious, the FIL simply thinks him and his family are better then everyone, including members of his own family who he believes beneath him, sadly that includes myself! Awful pairing but I suppose they aren’t with an empath who they tearing apart (apart from their kids of course).

That's an interesting insight, thank you. What a lovely supportive forum.

My mum is the toxic narcissist and my dad the enabler. However I’d noticed some of her traits coming out in him. He could be quite toxic & cruel too in the end. It’s very sad.

@JustLaura it's partly my fault because my DH has been really crazy with money and taken lots of risks and also flaunted that to my dad and sister. And I didn't put my foot down. My dad did an intervention via his will which was so shocking it left me borderline suicidal, and my oldest sister conspired with him on this. But in their own messy way, my dad and sister were trying to help me. This is not the same as saying it's ALL my fault - hell nah.

The fuckers nearly killed me.

The same sister - the one who's not severely mentally ill - is looking after my dad. She's got no partner, has a caring compulsion, and lives close to him so it makes sense.

Having said that, she may well think I'm feckless and supine, not helping out. I don't know. I did a lot more before the will intervention. I visited him every month, often staying the night, and phoned him every week, and was on call for anything urgent that might be needed (although he's not at that stage yet).

Dsis a mildly narc and very fragile but she is fantastic on the practicalities. She and my dad are cut from the same cloth with their concrete thinking so they're kind of made for each other.

I think there's a pathology around my dad not wanting us to belong to other men, and my sister has fulfilled that to a tee, so in some ways, it's a case of 'well, they are very happy together'. (Someone on a thread I started about my situ said very sarkily and mockingly that he wants us to be 'handmaidens to his death' - if so she's throwing herself into that.)

But they've kind of pushed me out.

I actually called my dad this AM and feel a lot better for it. There's this undertow, an old primitive dynamic from the deeps, that could suck me under if I get too close, or my defences are down. But that's very common I guess.

@flapjackfairy I'm so sorry about the drip drip drip. That's one thing I don't have. It's sudden dramatic flare-ups with me. It sounds awful. I am so sorry about your sister. I'm not sure it's better or worse when you once got on well. I was talking to a friend who says she has no good memories of her family and I just didn't know which one of us was worse off.

@itsnotagameshow the book group/scald business - oh my god! I winced reading that. Hugs. It sounds like it may not be a dilemma to go NC with her and I wish you luck xxx

That's interesting and really sad.