October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@mumonthehill am I correct in presuming you don't want to go no-contact? Is this a long-term situation or recent?

I'm in a similar situation.

I've stepped back by about 50% of what I used to do for them but it's still difficult to not forget everything that has happened.

Can you say something like this isn't my recollection, then leave it at that. Don't apologise. Whenever they say but we did x, y, z for you, say well no I did it.

It's difficult. I know.

How would you respond to this?

Parents (specifically Mother) keeps 'show-casing' the Golden Child to me. Now it's progressed to photo's and video's from them that I'm expected to watch.

I keep saying I'm not interested but it keeps happening. Then when I stand even firmer, she gets physically and emotionally upset and says she has no-one else to show them to........

Both of my parents are elderly and in ill health.

It is generally 'the Golden Child Roadshow' all of the time. Then that gets compared and contrasted with my life.

I am NC with sibling but Golden Child seems to pull their strings in their actions to me.

I go as 'grey rock' as possible but that seems to backfire on me as they think I have nothing but them.

Any suggestions?

I do not want to go no contact but ok to stay at low contact for the moment.

@JustLaura I’d leave the house each time.

@mumonthehill you have met her halfway to agree to disagree but she doesn't want that, she wants to be right and you wrong, you to apologise and grovel. I expect you have a long tradition of backing down to keep the peace, she expects you you to capitulate to her as usual.
Your dad is emotionally blackmailing you. I will tell you how you will feel if she dies while NC bloody relieved, that was what I felt, zero guilt, sadness, just bloody relief that it was over and I could draw a line under it all. Your dad wants you to crawl back to make his life easier.
There is no middle ground with dysfunctional people, you cannot reason with them, they are not interested in being reasonable, only getting their own way. They are exhausting, empty people, nothing is ever enough for them. Save yourself x

You shouldn't learn to live with it happyfarm. That means you've shut down emotionally, its a very unhealthy state. It also means you've normalised/accepted unhealthy and abnormal behaviour. This has a detrimental effect on any other relationships you have, with anyone at all, in your life. You won't behave as you should - having boundaries, standing up for yourself, calling out bad behaviour, walking away from toxicity and rudeness etc, you won't do any of that. Learning to live with it means learning to destroy yourself and mould yourself into whatever they want at that moment, which means having no boundaries and becoming a chameleon to please them, since what they want constantly changes except for their need for total control. Even then it won't work because often what the most toxic of them want is someone to tear down and destroy, they enjoy the feeling of power while they do it. So whatever you do it'll be wrong, you can't "win" no matter what (it's not winning anyway, it's just avoiding their wrath - the relief of that feels amazing, compared to walking on eggshells waiting for the next explosion).

I came to the thread for the same reason as you happyfarm, tips on how to cope, but there wasn't any. Every advice to everyone was go NC because it's the only way. I didn't initially have the words for it, but it turns out I was already grey-rocking (which I think can basically be summed up as half-assed NC, where you're still suppressing who you are whenever you speak to them/anyone that knows them) and it wasn't enough for me.

I'm actually not NC yet although I get closer to it month by month, my relationship with the narcs has definitely broken down completely, because they're unhappy I won't be who/what they want me to be. What I mainly feel now is mild sadness and mostly indifference, with one tiny speck of hope and about 1% love (and that's really for the people I wish they were, but aren't). Our meetups are the opposite of fun, for anyone. I've decided on a New Year's resolution to go on a health kick and I won't be doing anything incompatible with that, so I think that could well be the end of things. If not, life plans and old age will eventually put a stop to it all as geographical distance and people's failing health affects travelling. (Do people generally drive into their 80's?)

Exactly that, leave the house, actions have consequences. I would also sternly say 'what part of dont send/show me pictures and videos of GC do you not understand'

It's not your fault she has no friends to show off to, dysfunctional people are incapable of having friends.

I don't hold with the grey rock stuff because it is being fake/dishonest like the people we are trying to avoid. Pretending to be a dull person is not good for your self esteem. It also means you are available all the time in their minds because you have no life.

Edited to say: if all she wants to talk about is GC she isn't interested in you or your life, why bother? What is the point? Would she rather GC visit instead of you? In which case time to step back until she learns to behave, do not reward bad behaviour.

@wonderingwonderingwondering I'm going down the avoidant route too. I find it hard to believe people could be that bad - everybody has a point of view. I'm aware that this gets me exploited, but I can't seem to stop thinking that way, so avoiding the people who hurt me seems the only way to go.

I'm very curious about your story - is it on this thread?

@binkie163 'long tradition of backing down to keep the peace' 'no middle ground with these people' - it's so good to find people who are trying to articulate the same feelings as me.

I'm sorry about whatever happened to you.

@mumonthehill you sound like your situation might have been stable for a while but has taken a turn for the worse? Your parents sound very, very anxious and fragile. They want you to do all the emotional heavy lifting for them. There's no easy route through as others have said. Backing out and taking your losses (in terms of being less close to them) are possibly a least worst option but everybody has to go through their own journey as to whether they can bear that. sometimes it takes a long time to realise that's all that's left.

@JustLaura aaaaargh she interprets grey rock as you have nothing but her! That is making me grip the table with irritation even though its nothing to do with me! Sometimes I think the problem with 'these people' as binkie163 so aptly describes them is that they have no bloody imagination.

What should you do? Damned if I know. There's no winning. Just grieving (as you see less of them) and acceptance of the loss. Or they come to their senses.

This is assuming we are all totally reasonable and they are all the villains, which is a big assumption but I do see a pattern on here of self-aware, sensitive people hurt by much less imaginative family members who deal with their emotions via denial and other rigid, unempathic defenses.

Like you, I don't want to go NC. But in the case of my anxious, fragile, ostensibly hard-as-nails sister, it seems it is more terrifying for her to unpick the difficulties in our relationship than to lose contact with me. So weird though it may sound, I'm actually trying to give her what she wants. On the 'selfish' side, I can't spend my nights crying over my FOO when I've got my own kids to look after.

@SamAndAnnie I’ve dealt with my own family but my MIL and FIL are terribly narcissistic. I’ve picked the scapegoat son, the spare part. Their other son is absolutely perfect and so is the partner and kids. It’s hitting this trigger in me that I have kind of dealt with but like most people it stays with you. The feeling that you aren’t quite good enough. These people can’t even hide that they believe I’m not good enough. They won’t even stand in photos with me. I don’t believe for a second I’m not good enough, they are dysfunctional but it has this habit of just getting to me. When I’m in the same room I can feel there disgust of me. I try and be my usual happy quirky self but I’m so out of place. Even when you think you can do it you just can’t stop it getting to you.

Thank you all. I cannot tell you how much you have helped today. I feel so devastated. You are right I do not want to go NC and you are also right that I always keep the peace, always be what they expect me to be and I am tired. I am not sure where to go with this but just writing it out and hearing from you all has helped so much.

Laura it's ok to walk away from rude people. You don't have to stick around whilst they're rude to you. Negatively comparing GC to you is rude.

If you want, look at the pics but shut down any comparison around them by saying that you aren't interested in hearing it, repeating that you've just told them you aren't interested in hearing it and changing the subject. Every time. If they continue to try to walk over the boundary you've just set (that you don't want to hear the comparisons) by telling you comparisons, then they're being incredibly rude and the correct way to behave is to exit the conversation, which may mean physically leaving their presence. You could point out to them that they're being rude, if you want, so they know why you've walked away. Don't expect it to fix anything long term though. There is no fixing it ever because they're not going to change.

You're basically asking how you can win the "best life" competition without telling them details of your life. The answer is you can't. So just don't play. Which means shutting down the conversation when they start comparing.

If you don't want to watch the videos and pics, which is understandable since you're NC with sibling, you could tell them you're NC. Although I'm guessing they already know, which means even showing you the pics etc is rude and justifies you ending the conversation and walking away, because they're trampling all over your boundaries of NC with sibling by trying to force contact second hand via them showing you pics.

You're not responsible for their feelings. Let them be upset, it's not your problem to fix and isn't your fault. You're entitled to be NC with sibling if you want.

You could suggest helping them find a day center for the elderly or hobby groups to join, so they'll have friends to show their family pics to. Although I'm guessing they don't want friends to show their pics to, they want to show them to you, so they can put you down with the comparison game and provoke you into "proving" them wrong by divulging information you don't want to. They're being manipulative. If I'm wrong and they aren't, they'll happily embrace your suggestions for forging new friendships so they're less lonely.

I find grey rock works as far as the information diet goes, but the overall effects of it aren't much more pleasant than before we started with it and they'll still do their darnedest to find a way around it, because the narcs controlling us is the basis of their relationship with us. It's exhausting having to constantly shore up our defences against their attempts at trying to manipulate us into disclosing information. Grey rock is a useful tool, but it doesn't create a happy relationship between you, for either of you.

happyfarm I take from that they're toxic and not healthy for you to be around, full stop.

If they were literally radioactive, would you go stand in their presence and let the radioactivity make you sick? Would you send your DC into this radioactive zone to be made sick?

Mumonthehill nobody ever wants to go NC. It's a realisation we all slowly come to that if we want peace, it's necessary. Like if peacefulness is a sliding scale with 0% being totally controlled and chaos in our minds and 100% being totally in control of our own lives and at peace. Every level of contact with them means giving up some percentage of your possible amount of peace and control over your own life. You lose some control the minute you enter their orbit because they're manipulative which affects our emotional state and mental wellness. At 100% peace we control our own emotional state and have mental wellness (or at least can work on it without sabotage by them). Stick around, let the information soak in and go at your own pace to find the position on the sliding scale that you're happy with.

Thanks @SamAndAnnie you're right on every level.

For some reason and even though I've reduced contact by 50% it seems to be getting worse not better!

Perhaps they are upping it as I'm appearing uninterested.

It's all so sad.

@JustLaura yep welcome to the 'ramp up' increasing the batshit behaviour to hoover you back in and to put you back in your place.
Don't play the game, drop the rope they hold out to you. At some point they are going to expect you to become their carer because GC sure as shit isn't going to do it. Run for the hills.

I’m not sure if this fit this thread or bereavement,

background first….
So, around 20 years ago my dad cut me off. Long story about I didn’t know what really! My mum had died and he’d got into a new relationship within 2 months of her funeral…but it hadn’t been happy marriage despite it being 45 years! He thought I didn’t approve of his partner, not so. I simply didn’t know her, I didn’t find it easy getting on with HIM, he was eliminating all memories of my mum while I was still grieving - literally removing any evidence of her…but how it happened and why at that point who knows. He’d never been close even when I was a child and tended to use me as emotional support during his unhappy with mum moments. I took this breakdown in comms very badly, it was happening at a horrible point in my marriage and with mum death I ended up with mental illness. It wasn’t helped that he moved to his partners country for years, only coming to his home a few times a year 🤷🏼‍♀️. But he has been with partner all that time for 20 plus years and genuinely did seem happier. No legal partnership.

About 3 years ago, after a few false starts he got in contact again. Elderly. Not well . Now living in his home in this country by himself mostly with partner visiting a few times per year. But within a few short months of the reconcile he deteriorated and went into care, and eventually was diagnosed with Lewy body dementia. It’s been bloody awful few years for him and our family. Around 6 weeks ago he died

.i am grieving, rather strangely as I feel I grieved for 20 years already. But I have some frankly horrible memories of the last 2 years of his illness, and then none for previous 20 years. I want to remember times we were together as part of grieving. And inevitably that’s back to before mum died. To do that id like to access family photos. I haven’t seen them now for 20 plus years.

and here’s the issue.

Partner doesn’t own my dad’s house legally , she has home in her country. Never moved here full time even though dad was terminally ill. But has apparently long regarded it as her “home” like a holiday home. but she is here now and talking like she is staying. I have no idea what Will states as not been shared with me (suspect I’m written out). But she is one of executors along with my eldest sibling.
so, she not “allowing” me to look for the family photos. I can visit (a days journey round trip) but only to look at photos she has. I want to look at “our” photos, not hers. Hers are not my memories. It’s not just to help me grieve my dad, but access photos of my mum, all our biological family, my graduation, siblings and my life really. I will add that she is looking at photos of her and my dad a plenty, talking about how happy he was after he met her and how he had been so unhappy before. She also says that there are only a few photos in a couple of wallets. It may be that dad throw them out but I think it unlikely as he knew they meant something to my siblings too. There were boxes full when I last saw them 20 plus years ago. It really is distressing me now to still not have access and her saying they don’t exist. Unless I can really search and convince myself he chucked them all I will never know and will loose all that family history I’ve been wanting to access for years.

Siblings currently aren’t exactly helpful (though we get on very well, they don’t seem bothered by photos and imply I’m making a fuss and creating issues ). I think I’m perfectly normal to want to look over photos as part of grieving. And this is no big thing given I’m not asking for photos of her and dad . Nor have they actively looked at photos themselves in last 20 years- though they could have done. And dad’s partner is refusing to let me try to locate them as it’s her house. Technically this may be case after probate, but right now it is in executors hands- which includes her. She’s also saying it’ll have to wait to probate as she can’t “release” anything from the house even on loan anyway - it could be months and months time. And by then she could own the house and simply refuse access to me . I’m like this is a “normal” family thing to do, to go over old photos and memories once both parents have passed a way.

i should add I don’t dislike her, I simply don’t know her and dad dying is making us deal face to face, this issue is not exactly helping build bridges. In fact it is fast escalating into creating issues between me and siblings too

any advice?

Dart this is long and complicated and I feel it would be helpful to you if broken down into different parts.

First. The part that sticks out to me right now is the legal one. I think she's right that stuff goes through probate and then is distributed by executors. I know that if executors don't follow the will then that's a crime and they can be prosecuted, you can go to police. That still won't get items returned to you that they've destroyed though because obviously that's an impossibility.

You can get a copy of the will somewhere online, you apply for it, it's a few pounds cost. I believe as he's died it will have been submitted somewhere online and IRL to the relevant authorities, so don't worry if he wasn't an internet type of person. Nobody is obliged to show you or share with you their copy of the will, it is theirs.

Even if she has been left the house, she hasn't necessary been left the contents eg photos.

So first find out if you're a beneficiary of the will, if you're not then you have zero rights to anything and it will be upto the new owner of the photos if they let you have any.

I recommend asking for more information on this aspect of it all using the Legal Forum Board on here. Leave out the emotional stuff as much as possible, it'll derail your thread there and isn't relevant to the law and practicalities.

Second. Personally I think since you said dad was eradicating memories of mum's existence then he's disposed of the photos. I'm sorry.

I also think he was only getting back in touch with you because he was old, had some sort of difficulty with his relationship with his partner that lead to him moving back home, had dementia and needed a carer. Not because he cared about you.

Third. Siblings don't want you "making a fuss" means they just CBA to deal with anything that isn't in their own best interests. You can't make them help you, so you'll need to come to terms with that. And also perhaps come to terms with generally having shite siblings, if they are and you haven't already. You don't sound close.

They're grieving too and for whatever reason don't want to deal with your request. From their perspective I guess a good time for you to have sorted out photos of mum and dad was when mum died, especially since you knew he was getting rid of everything. That you didn't do this isn't their fault.

I'd suggest posting on the Bereavement Forum Board for help with the grieving process when you don't have access to mementos due to estrangement, there should be some people out there who have experienced similar and can advise or at least lend a sympathetic ear.

Fourth. Dad's partner sounds like she rules the roost and possibly always has done. She sounds self centered. Maybe she was the reason he cut you off?

I won't say anything more about your family dynamics because you've got a lot going on at the moment and I'm not sure from your post that you're wanting to look into that anyway. Please do say if you are wanting that sort of information. That's mainly what this thread is for, people trying to work out what's what within their family situation and what to do going forward. You sounded more as if you wanted practical advice around the deaths.

Good morning. I've just seen this article in the New Yorker, and thought it might be of some interest to posters on here. I'm sorry if someone else has already posted it.
www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/why-so-many-people-are-going-no-contact-with-their-parents

Thanks @SamAndAnnie If it were up to me I wouldn’t go ever again, it’s very clear they don’t approve of me. I can see the dysfunction and I’ve had just about enough of it in my life, I’ve no desire to have anymore. You either like me and accept me for who I am (yeah I’ve some bad parts), but theres also lots to like I think. I’m not changing anymore to be liked. Having left my abusive marriage with zero identity its been a hard slog to get to where I have. My partner is stuck in the dynamic. I’ve no idea why he has zero backbone and why he allows them to treat me like they do (well sorry I do have an idea, he’s brainwashed). He thinks his mum
is god, she throws a small bone every now and again and it’s just enough to keep him hooked. He’s like a wet fish and it’s getting on my nerves lately.

Do narcissistic people blame you for their feelings. So if they feel jealous do they feel like you are doing something purposefully to them to make them feel it so you are the problem?

Very good article that looks at it from all angles. A progressive development, societal shift to children setting the terms of their relationship with their parents. But not a perfect solution, anymore than the parents setting the terms is. Some potentially tragic consequences, just like the previous way of doing things.

Good to see feelings of 'did I invent it all' and being deeply uncertain about going NC being aired. This only applies to the situations where there is more ambiguity - I'm not suggesting those people with abusive parents should ever doubt their decision.

But my family's outrages are quite ambiguous and difficult to explain. I've come to where I've come to more because they won't talk, yet they keep on hurting me. Quite possibly, I keep hurting them too.

The actual individual cases of hurt are less important than the fact that they won't work on a mutual understanding whereby I can expect the hurt to stop.

Depressingly, without talking, it'll only get worse. But talking is too painful now, even for me, especially with these unwilling, untrusting partners.

@almondmilk123 my experience was talking was pointless. My parents listened, agreed, apologised, cried, made the right noises but nothing changed.
After an extinction event argument, I hung up the phone mid sentence and never spoke to my mum ever again.
I can honestly say I did everything to keep a relationship and communication open. I just felt NC was a bit punitive. It became blindingly obvious to me that she was so selfish, self absorbed and spiteful that she enjoyed the drama and tears, she would never change. I had enough and walked away.
Talking is a waste of energy with them, they see everything as a negotiation because it means they still have your attention.

I think also maybe the more you talk and negotiate the more they see you as the issue and it just confirms what they already know, “that you dramatic, too sensitive, manipulative, stupid, causing drama” insert any word to make you at fault. When we talk it’s a different language and they interpret it in a different way to “normal people”. Everything is just evidence. You, we, are at fault full stop!

All your insights are so useful. During the big blow out, I was told that I speak funny and she did not like it. It was difficult to find an answer to this. Communication really not going to work if I am constantly worried that I might sound a way that is not liked. The more I write it down the odder it all gets.

God yes. I found an email to my sister from years ago in which I was telling her that our mother had told me to ‘stop winding your sister up’ . I’ve been told I am too sensitive, dramatic/ misinterpret everything. Nothing is EVER my mother’s fault.

@Obsessedwithsourdough they have Teflon fault! Nothing sticks. @mumonthehill the things we absorb and deem normal is sometimes really ridiculous.

Interested article, I especially resonate with the point at the beginning that there becomes fewer and fewer safe topics to talk about. Everything leads to insults, judgement or manipulation for information. Until in the end I find now that I'm sat there, not saying anything at all, treading eggshells constantly while waiting for someone to speak to me, before carefully considering how to word my answer. It's never an enjoyable "conversation" because there's no respect for me, my feelings or my boundaries. It's all about what they want to know, what they want me to be and what they want me to think.

Mumonthehill you don't have to be liked.

Ever worked with someone you didn't like? Did it stop you treating them with respect? Did you expect them to change everything about themselves that annoyed you? Did you get angry or punish them in some way when they didn't do that?

Or did you behave like a normal human being and treat them with basic civility and respect regardless of your feelings towards them?

...they see everything as a negotiation...

Totally agree binkie, including any boundaries I try to have. The more I stand up for myself the more obvious it becomes just how determined they are to get their own way. When covert manipulation doesn't work, in desperation they resort to overt manipulation. I feel as though I'm seeing the ugly, raw, truth of them for the first time.

Do narcissistic people blame you for their feelings. So if they feel jealous do they feel like you are doing something purposefully to them to make them feel it so you are the problem?

IME yes, exactly that. They also project. So if they feel jealous, it's not them behaving that way. It's everyone else is jealous of them and behaving that way towards them. Or you're the jealous one, not them. Either way, the problem is you. Have you read the Narcissists Prayer?